Water for 10th Levels

[thatguy314]

So AJ, to reiterate, you think that hard water results in a more crisp flavor, and harsher bitterness, compared to the more rounded flavor and smoother bitterness of soft water? How does this compare to the effects of sulfate and chloride?

[11amas]

AJ, it seems you prefer using HCl for acid additions or lactic via saurmaltz; what are your feelings about phosphoric acid? I am a minimalist with minerals and love my beer. The only beer I have liked more with a good amount of minerals was a stout and I was still restrained. I have some H3PO4 but I am wondering if I need to buy some HCl. So the CL- will be chloride which I like the idea of, what about phosphate and the contributions to beer flavor? As for lactic acid, via liquid or saurmaltz, what ion contributions are left in solution and are the flavor contributions something you seek in most beers?

[ajdelange]

Here's one I'm drinking now:

Weyermann Pils 70 Lbs
Weyermann Vienna 8 Lbs
Weyermann Munich I 8 Lbs
Weyermann CaraFoam 5 Lbs
Weyermann Wheat 8 Lbs
Weyermann Sauermalz 3 Lbs

Water was a 6:1 blend of RO and my well water. The blend would be about 4.5 mg/L Ca, 4.1 mg/L Mg, 1.7 mg/L Cl, 0.8 mg/L SO4, 1 mg/L Na and have alkalinity of about 24.

Dough in (78°F) pH was 5.18 which rose to 5.33 by the acid rest (105 °F) reached by addition of heat and 5.41 for the protein rest (127°F) at the return of the first decoction. pH held at 5.41 during the saccharification rest (149°F) reached by return of the second decoction. A third (thin) decoction was used to raise to mashout temperature. First runnings were at pH 5.39 and 17.5 Brix.

Boil was 2 hours with 4 hop additions in the last hour

1st addition: 16 Oz Saaz pellet at 2.8% alpha 60 minutes
2nd addition: 8 Oz Saaz pellet at 3.2 % alpha 30 minutes
3rd addition: 8 Oz Saaz pellet at 3.2% alpha 15 minutes
4th addition: 8 Oz Saaz leaf at 3.2% alpha at end of boil

Wort came out of heat exchanger at 55 °F, pH 5.13 and approximately 13.5°P. It was innoculated in-line with a starter made from 2 slap packs of Wyeast 2001 (the PU strain) with 6 pounds light DME in 5 gal well water plus Wyeast nutrient. The wort is also oxygenated in line as it flows to the fermenter to a level of about 20 mg/L. The fermenter was set for 55 °F (I've been starting lower recently). Fourteen hours later the pH had dropped to 4.87 and there were a couple of inches of water CO2 pressure. The controller was set to 52 °F and a couple of hours after that gas was bubbling through the lock and the controller reduced to 50° and 8 hrs after that to 48°F. After 12 days apparent attenuation was 72%, fermenter was spunded and a slow decrease, over the next week, to 33°F was begun. After two weeks conditioning at this temperature the beer was filled into kegs. At analysis it came out with an ADF of 79% and RDF of 65% for ABV of 6.25%. This implies that the effective OG (including evaporation, the starter, hops bed sparge water....) was 14.4°P so it is a hefty Pils. The numbers imply an overall efficiency (ratio of weight of effective fermented plus unfermented extract in the kegs to weight of grain plus starter DME) of 63%. SRM was 7.9 and bitterness 26 IBU (calculated bitterness 28.1 - I usually don't get agreement that good).

[ajdelange]

So AJ, to reiterate, you think that hard water results in a more crisp flavor, and harsher bitterness, compared to the more rounded flavor and smoother bitterness of soft water?

Since "hardness" specifically refers to calcium and magnesium ions I'd probably rephrase that slightly to say low mineral content water, as opposed to soft water, gives a smoother, softer beer than high mineral content water. To get the impression of a Bohemian Pils you must have soft water but you could have a crisp pils with hard water (and the Germans do) without the harshness if the sulfate is moderate and the hopping restrained. A pet theory of mine is that the way sulfate reacts with hops depends on the cultivar. We brew high sulfate beers with English hops all the time (although in 2 experiments I did where otherwise identical batches of Burton style ale were brewed with Burton and soft water drinkers who were BJCP judges found the Burton beer more authentic but not as good as the soft water ale).

How does this compare to the effects of sulfate and chloride?

That's a good question. The words one uses to describe a good soft water lager are similar to those used to describe a beer to which chloride has been added and at least one set of researchers in England found that chloride could offset sulfate to the extent that these qualities were predictable through the chloride to sulfate ratio rather than the absolute amounts. This has lead to the widespread use of chloride to sulfate ratio as a measure of "maltiness" vs "hoppiness". This concept obviously has limits. A water with 0.5 mg/L chloride and 5 mg/L sulfate is going to produce a beer without hops harshness but one with 50 mg/L chloride and 500 mg/L sulfate isn't even though the ratio is 10 in both cases. I guess my opinion here would be that you might rescue a beer that is made with a highly sulfate water by adding chloride to it but I think the Germans would agree that you produce a better beer by not having the sulfate in the first place.

The softness and roundness that come with low mineral water are not quite the same as the softness, roundness, fullness and sweetness that come from chloride. So an obvious question is what would happen if you added chloride to otherwise soft water and brewed with that. You can get an idea by adding salt to some such beer at the time you drink it. It was common practice when I was a kid for the blue collar workers (they were the only ones that drank beer in those days) to shake some salt into their beer at the bar.

I think it's wise to remember here that we are talking about taste and that tastes and preferences vary. What I've described are mine. The very fact that I much prefer lager beer should tell you something about the way my tastes lean. I hope I'm not offending anyone who is reading this on break from polishing his Angram's and to them I note that I do enjoy a good, hand pulled pint on occasion as well. In fact just last weekend I went to a party where there were 20 engines set up on the hosts' back porch (and brought a pin of ESB made with low mineral water).

[ajdelange]

AJ, it seems you prefer using HCl for acid additions or lactic via saurmaltz; what are your feelings about phosphoric acid? I am a minimalist with minerals and love my beer. The only beer I have liked more with a good amount of minerals was a stout and I was still restrained. I have some H3PO4 but I am wondering if I need to buy some HCl. So the CL- will be chloride which I like the idea of...

That's exactly why I use hydrochloric as opposed to sulfuric but if you like what sulfate does with hops you could use sulfate. In Britain there is a product called CRS (carbonate reducing solution) which is, as I understand it, a mixture of sulfuric and hydrochloric acids. AFAIK it is not available in the US.

...what about phosphate and the contributions to beer flavor?

I have never used it for setting pH (but I do use it for removing beerstone). It is quite flavor neutral. A substantial part of the world's phosphoric acid production goes into making sodas and I can't ever remember a soda as tasting of an acid anion in anything like the way things with citrate, malate, lactate, or acetate taste. Another advantage of phophoric acid is that it is readily available in food grade at your LHBS. Hydrochoric and sulfuric acids are not. Note that I do not recommend the use of other than food grade acid in brewing.

As for lactic acid, via liquid or saurmaltz, what ion contributions are left in solution and are the flavor contributions something you seek in most beers?

Lactate ion is left behind and it has a definite taste but if you are using sauermalz or sauergut (lactic soured wort) you are getting not only the acid but the flavors of the malt it came from or is riding on. These flavors add something to the beer that you would not get if you bough straight lactic acid at your LHBS (where it is available in food grade). In whatever form you use it (you won't get sauergut unless you make it yourself) if you use enough that the beer tastes sour you have clearly overshot (unless it was your intent to make sour beer). I have never had to use more than 3% sauermalz and I think that you would probably start to taste sourness as a primary flavor if you went much over say 4%.

[thatguy314]

I think it's wise to remember here that we are talking about taste and that tastes and preferences vary. What I've described are mine. The very fact that I much prefer lager beer should tell you something about the way my tastes lean. I hope I'm not offending anyone who is reading this on break from polishing his Angram's and to them I note that I do enjoy a good, hand pulled pint on occasion as well. In fact just last weekend I went to a party where there were 20 engines set up on the hosts' back porch (and brought a pin of ESB made with low mineral water).

I understand that completely, But I think that in order to be a good chef, I should try to understand the ins and outs of my ingredients when I'm cooking. I know some of it I'll just have to play with myself, but I like to have an idea of what the parameters are before I start playing with it.

[Shattheproducer]

I know some of it I'll just have to play with myself, but I like to have an idea of what the parameters are before I start playing with it.

Sorry, great thread just couldn't pass this one up.

[ajdelange]

But I think that in order to be a good chef, I should try to understand the ins and outs of my ingredients when I'm cooking.

I absolutely agree. To keep the cooking analogy, we could be discussing mace/nutmeg ratio in bratwurst. Some may prefer more and some may prefer less. Clearly you should understand the effects of nutmeg and mace on the sausage but preference may be quite different (BTW, I go for the mace).

Finally listened to the DG interview. He is using the German terminology in which KH (Kalciumhärtung) i.e. calcium "hardness" really means the temporary hardness which is the alkalinity (as long as the total hardness is greater than the alkalinity) and speaking of the necessity for hardness in the brewing water. But what he really means is alkalinity and he says specifically that without bicarbonate the water has no life and neither will the beer. If he really believes this then he must find Pilsner Urquell and Budvar lifeless beers. Furthermore, he goes on to say that they use "biological acidification", by which he clearly means sauergut to set mash pH. As I noted earlier, if he hits mash pH of 5.3 the bicarbonate level of the beer drops as bicarbonate converts to CO2 and is expelled to about 8% of what it was in the mash water (assuming the mash water came in at pH 8.3 - if it comes in at pH 7 then the decrease is to 10% of the original) and as the beer ferments and the pH goes down to say 4.7 (more or less typical for a lager) it goes down to about 2% of what was in the water.

Would love to sit down and discuss with him over beer, lifeless soft water beer though it might be in his opinion (and here's where taste and preference come in again). Perhaps it's that he trained in Germany (?), not Bohemia. Can't argue with his success though (never been in a GB except Las Vegas).