How much longer does fly sparging take YOU?

[Ozwald]

But that doesn't make the process any less efficient. That's like saying driving a car is inefficient because the driver is incapable of navigating from point A to B in a rational manner. Sure you can walk from A to B faster than driving a car, if the driver goes to point B, C, D, E, F, Q, 4, ß, æ & stops to £ some hooker while he's there, but that doesn't mean walking is more efficient than driving.

Now you're switching up consistent and efficient... but I think we are in agreement that it is the application of the process that determines how well it works...

Same driver, same car, same hooker.

Read the resume. Job description, Advocate. Former employer, Mephistopheles.

But really, it's the brewer that makes the difference, not the process. Just because one might have more potential for mistakes doesn't mean you should fault the process.

Good game, your deal. Ante up.

[spiderwrangler]

Are we having our first fight?

The concept I'm trying to push is that as a process, batch sparging has a lower potential efficiency but will tend to be less variable (more consistent) as it is simpler. Fly sparging has a higher potential efficiency but under the influence of brewer/equipment issues, can be more variable (less consistent) as there are more aspects of the process that can affect the eventual yield.

To throw completely made up numbers at it to try to illustrate my point, for a given recipe done with standard batch sparging, efficiency yield may range from 65-75%, while fly sparging may range from 55-85+% with extremely low yields from severe channeling. An experienced brewer such as yourself, working on a system optimized for it that you are familiar with, will hit an average on the upper end of that range.

My perspective is strongly skewed towards batch sparging as a more 'fool-proof' technique (though true fools will find a way to fuck up anything). This is at least partially colored by my dealing with things from the retail side. I'd rather someone moving into all grain do batch sparging first to be able to focus on all the other aspects of doing a proper mash, etc. than try fucking around with fly sparging in a futile attempt to chase efficiency. Do something simpler, that they'll be able to be more consistent at, then move to fly when they are ready.

I still maintain there is more inherent variability in the process of fly sparging than in batch sparging (and thus less consistency), but that it is the skill of the brewer that reduces that variability to be able to be a consistent fly sparger. In other words, almost any one can get in a range with batch sparging, but fly sparging is more of a challenge, and needs a more skilled brewer to do it well.

[Ozwald]

Are we having our first fight?

The concept I'm trying to push is that as a process, batch sparging has a lower potential efficiency but will tend to be less variable (more consistent) as it is simpler. Fly sparging has a higher potential efficiency but under the influence of brewer/equipment issues, can be more variable (less consistent) as there are more aspects of the process that can affect the eventual yield.

To throw completely made up numbers at it to try to illustrate my point, for a given recipe done with standard batch sparging, efficiency yield may range from 65-75%, while fly sparging may range from 55-85+% with extremely low yields from severe channeling. An experienced brewer such as yourself, working on a system optimized for it that you are familiar with, will hit an average on the upper end of that range.

My perspective is strongly skewed towards batch sparging as a more 'fool-proof' technique (though true fools will find a way to fuck up anything). This is at least partially colored by my dealing with things from the retail side. I'd rather someone moving into all grain do batch sparging first to be able to focus on all the other aspects of doing a proper mash, etc. than try fucking around with fly sparging in a futile attempt to chase efficiency. Do something simpler, that they'll be able to be more consistent at, then move to fly when they are ready.

I still maintain there is more inherent variability in the process of fly sparging than in batch sparging (and thus less consistency), but that it is the skill of the brewer that reduces that variability to be able to be a consistent fly sparger. In other words, almost any one can get in a range with batch sparging, but fly sparging is more of a challenge, and needs a more skilled brewer to do it well.

STOP AGREEING WITH ME!!!!!!

Edit: Actually, I will disagree with one point. (I'm sorry my love). You insinuate that the upper end of efficiency of batch sparging by a skilled brewer, practiced in that technique on a given system is, in fact, lower than the upper end of efficiency of fly sparging by a skilled brewer, practiced in that technique on a given system. I believe, no, I absolutely know, that you can achieve the same efficiencies by doing batch sparging as fly sparging. That is to say you take the world's best batch sparger on his system specifically & properly engineered for batch sparging & you take the world's best fly sparger on his system specifically & properly engineered for fly sparging. Tell them both to forget about the quality & hit, say, 90% (& we're not comparing quality against each other either, just a matter of what process is able to yield what efficiency) & it is very possible for both to do so.

[BDawg]

Get a fucking room, you two

[spiderwrangler]

Fair point. For that matter, a batch sparger could wring every last drop of good sugar out by adding sparge water and taking readings until it gets to whatever gravity (1.010, etc) they want to cut off at and running it all out...

BDawg, shut it or join in.

[Bobbie Dooley]

Are we having our first fight?

The concept I'm trying to push is that as a process, batch sparging has a lower potential efficiency but will tend to be less variable (more consistent) as it is simpler. Fly sparging has a higher potential efficiency but under the influence of brewer/equipment issues, can be more variable (less consistent) as there are more aspects of the process that can affect the eventual yield.

To throw completely made up numbers at it to try to illustrate my point, for a given recipe done with standard batch sparging, efficiency yield may range from 65-75%, while fly sparging may range from 55-85+% with extremely low yields from severe channeling. An experienced brewer such as yourself, working on a system optimized for it that you are familiar with, will hit an average on the upper end of that range.

My perspective is strongly skewed towards batch sparging as a more 'fool-proof' technique (though true fools will find a way to fuck up anything). This is at least partially colored by my dealing with things from the retail side. I'd rather someone moving into all grain do batch sparging first to be able to focus on all the other aspects of doing a proper mash, etc. than try fucking around with fly sparging in a futile attempt to chase efficiency. Do something simpler, that they'll be able to be more consistent at, then move to fly when they are ready.

I still maintain there is more inherent variability in the process of fly sparging than in batch sparging (and thus less consistency), but that it is the skill of the brewer that reduces that variability to be able to be a consistent fly sparger. In other words, almost any one can get in a range with batch sparging, but fly sparging is more of a challenge, and needs a more skilled brewer to do it well.

STOP AGREEING WITH ME!!!!!!

Edit: Actually, I will disagree with one point. (I'm sorry my love). You insinuate that the upper end of efficiency of batch sparging by a skilled brewer, practiced in that technique on a given system is, in fact, lower than the upper end of efficiency of fly sparging by a skilled brewer, practiced in that technique on a given system. I believe, no, I absolutely know, that you can achieve the same efficiencies by doing batch sparging as fly sparging. That is to say you take the world's best batch sparger on his system specifically & properly engineered for batch sparging & you take the world's best fly sparger on his system specifically & properly engineered for fly sparging. Tell them both to forget about the quality & hit, say, 90% (& we're not comparing quality against each other either, just a matter of what process is able to yield what efficiency) & it is very possible for both to do so.

Here's my take. Spider is speaking from a completely practical standpoint, if you take a hundred average new home brewers and tell them to try batch sparging vs fly sparging, the efficiency spread for the batch spargers would be probably between 65-75%. If took the data for fly sparging, it'd be more like 60-85% efficiency. I tend to look from a theoretical standpoint too, where the efficiency of the lauter is really only limited by the efficiency of the mash conversion. If I can get 400 points of sugar out of the grain in the mash tun, I'm damn sure gonna get 315+ of those points into my kettle. Regardless of what the theoretical limit is, the practical advice is the best advice 99% of the time.

For me, I hit between 80-85% every single time I fly sparge because I know my system and wtf I'm doing. The people who are asking about it have probably never done it, so no matter how good I am at it, they're probably going to suck for a while.

*Edit: I don't mean to get in between you boys

[Ozwald]

*winks at BD & pats the adjacent sofa cushion seductively*

You know you're just jealous.

[spiderwrangler]

*winks at BD & pats the adjacent sofa cushion seductively*

You know you're just jealous.

Was that directed at BDawg, Bobbie Dooley... or .... *gasp*... both?