Temperature Fluctuations During Bottle Conditioning

[spiderwrangler]

so the response is to adapt

To be clear, this is a physiological adaptation, not an evolutionary one.

Also, thanks for painting such a lovely image of me gorging myself.

[Ozwald]

so the response is to adapt

To be clear, this is a physiological adaptation, not an evolutionary one.

Also, thanks for painting such a lovely image of me gorging myself.

One leads to the other, but yes, I was talking on a small, more immediate scale. On the bigger scale, my tests did result in differences between a strain of 001 that was split, 1 fermented normal (mid-60's) & the other hot (upper 80's), after several generations. Of course this was on a small scale & I didn't repeat the experiment as much as one would to get more definitive results, but after a couple times there was an emerging trend. I got what I needed out of it & really didn't have any reason to push the issue any further. In fact it wasn't the purpose of the test at all, I was playing with propagation & fermentation characteristics at different temps - what I really got out of it was the temps I use 001 at (pitch @ 60-62, free rise to 64-65 for the first couple days & up to 68-70 for the rest of fermentation)

[spiderwrangler]

One leads to the other, but yes, I was talking on a small, more immediate scale.

Sort of... what happens on the small scale is the result of 'physiological plasticity', the ability to respond to changes in the environment. It is not those changes that individual undergoes during their lifetime that get passed on, but the capacity to undergo those changes. If you work hard to become an elite body builder, that musculature doesn't get passed to your offspring (that would be Lamarckian Evolution, ie giraffes have long necks because the stretched them during their lifetime, and pass that physical change on), but if you were genetically predisposed to being able to add lots of muscle mass without steroids, that potential may be passed on.

Changes must be genetic to be passed on, physical changes or changes in gene expression only affect the current individual. Yeast and other single celled organisms can be more susceptible to change, due to faster generation time and there not being a separation between gamete genes and somatic (body) genes. This is the same reason that something like skin cancer is not passed on. That results from genetic changes in cells on your neck for example, but not changes in your testicles. If your genes make you more likely to develop skin cancer, your children may be too, but would still have to acquire it on their own.

Where evolution can occur is if in a population, you are subjecting them to fermentation at a different temperature range, some individuals in that population are going to be better suited to be able to handle those conditions. These ones are going to reproduce faster and more often, resulting in a greater percentage of the next generation, that share the same traits. Over multiple generations, you end up with your population shifting more towards these individuals. So it isn't the change in environment that CAUSES mutations or different varieties, but a change in the conditions that shifts the reproductive success within the population, that can result in some of these oddballs surviving and reproducing.

Another distinction is that an individual cannot TRY to adapt or evolve. Gene expression may change, but the genes themselves are locked in have to play the hand they are dealt.

Sorry for the long, overly science-y post. Here are some to lighten things up.

[Ozwald]

That Darwin guy was really on to something (now if we can just take away some warning labels & laws, we could let nature take it's course with the human population - oh, to dream).

Remember that wasn't the data I was after, only a noticeable trend that appeared. What I did notice was that even after 10-12 generations, the warmer samples had a very difficult time producing a clean fermentation at the control groups 'normal' temps, to the point where I ended up dumping them & ended that particular series of experiments. I had the data I was after. Now if that's evolutionary or physiological plasticity by your text-book style explanation (which was excellent btw), I can't really be sure. I didn't have the lab that I do now. My comments from early this morning were more generalized... physiological adaptation eventually will create evolution. Were my warm samples adapting or evolving? It really doesn't matter in this specific discussion (until some asshat got all NatGeo on us ), perhaps something fun to experiment with on a slow rainy day, but I'm more concerned with results & manipulating them to my liking. In this particular instance knowing the 'how' really wasn't all that important as the results were still clear & those samples in question were not the 'winners'. If they had been, I very well may have dug deeper, but for now just knowing that it happens & to avoid it is plenty enough for me.

Back to the original topic, using my preferred temps for 001, I'd be more concerned if my 64-65 went up 2 degrees than if that 68-70 went up 5 (assuming all other variables were correct, such as temp shock, etc.)

Sorry, I'm coming up with nothing in the lines of a good dick joke to end this post on. Although the science chatter is a bit of a turn on. You busy later? And please wash my before returning them next time. That was NOT from your beard. Or mayo.



I love this forum. Science & boobies. And the occasional talk about beer. Not to mention the only forum I've found that isn't a bunch of uptight asses that lock every other thread (or have users treading on eggshells to avoid it). Funny, we have minimal moderation, yet less hostile arguments than those places. Cheers, BNArmy!

[spiderwrangler]

Yes, I don't think you were too off the mark in your comments, but like many (biologists included!) use of shortcuts in phrasing can lead to misunderstanding. I was trying to clarify, not refute what you had to say. So while physiological changes don't lead to evolution, the capacity to change is something that is selected upon by changing environments over many generations.

Sorry, I'm coming up with nothing in the lines of a good dick joke to end this post on.

On the topic of evolution and dicks, read up on the pseudo-penis of female spotted hyenas... if you're a male hyena, you gotta stick your cock up the bigger 'cock' of the female. I think all female hyenas are named Lola. L-O-L-A, Lola.