My Brewhouse and Mash Efficiency?

[RoKozak]

Since I just started AG, I'm looking to figure out exactly how I understand my brewhouse efficiency.

For example, I brew a recipe that assumes 70% efficiency.

Here's a few questions running through my mind.

The assumption of 70% efficiency -- is this mash or brewhouse?

Does mash efficiency change brewhouse efficiency? Say my mash efficiency jumps 5-10 points this next brew that assumes 70%...will that then throw off my recipe plan since I'd have a higher Pre-boil gravity?

Am I aiming to adjust my gravity to match recipe efficiency assumption?
How many brews does it take to establish a solid brewhouse efficiency for recipe development? I know there's no magic number but I want to see what people's experiences are.

As you can see, I think my biggest problem is really trying to understand what brewhouse efficiency is and how to relate it to recipes along with gravity readings and their meaning.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks everyone.

[CRBrewHound]

I'll try my best to answer from what I know, others will probably chime in and provide other info.

Typically efficiency is referrenced for mash, most recipe software assumes a certain efficiency and a pre-determined amount of beer at different steps, you tell the software both how much these volumes (pre-boil, post-boil, fermentor, and keg). I do know that I have heard from several people that Beersmith deals with BrewHouse efficiency, so it probably depends on the software that you are using.

"Does mash efficiency change brewhouse efficiency? Say my mash efficiency jumps 5-10 points this next brew that assumes 70%...will that then throw off my recipe plan since I'd have a higher Pre-boil gravity?"
Yes it does, however, you can correct for those issues, if you get a higher efficiency out of your mash, then you can add water to give you a proper pre-boil, if you come up short, you can boil down further before you hop additions, do get the right number, then just produce less finished product.

"Am I aiming to adjust my gravity to match recipe efficiency assumption? "
That depends, most of the time I would say yes as the recipe is defining what you are trying to produce, if your gravities are higher or lower then you will not produce that profile, however, there is nothing to say you have to, it is just beer, do what makes you feel good!

"How many brews does it take to establish a solid brewhouse efficiency for recipe development? I know there's no magic number but I want to see what people's experiences are."

As long as there are NO CHANGES to your system, typically I find that I am fairly honed in on my system after about 3 batches after a major change to system (new pots, mash tun, ect...)

Mash efficiency is simply how much sugars you are pulling from the grains from the maximum extraction potential.
Brew Houses efficiency is is total extraction possible per volumes compared to actual extraction per volume.
As you can see the only really difference in the two is how much wort is produced and consideration for losses through the system, so this includes wort left in mash tun, wort left in kettle, and trub left in fermentors.

At least that Is my take on stuff, there are some people on here much smarter then I, whom can give you much better discriptions of everything. hopefully they will chim in.

[EagleDude]

Mash vs Brewhouse efficiency: Mash/sparge efficiency is based on how much sugars or gravity points you are able to get from our grains compared against the grain's potential sugar yield. Brewhouse efficiency is generally tied to the volume of end product you end up with ... i.e. you often brew a 6 gallon batch to end up with 5 gallons of finished and packaged beer since you lose volume at each step.

Figuring out your mash/sparge efficiency: Brew a recipe that is based on 70% efficiency (or whatever) and measure your original gravity. If you are high, then adjust the efficiency up. If low, do the opposite. If using software, their should be a way to play with the % efficiency up or down until you have a recipe that matche your results. Whatever that efficiency % is will be your actual mash/sparge efficiency.

Hitting your numbers and dialing in your system:
Not sure if you are batch or fly sparging. Depending on your sparge method, techniques for hitting your numbers will be different.

For batch sparging (which I don't do) it is a matter of adding more water pre-boil or boiling longer and hotter to evaporate more liquid out of the wort. Others might have better ideas on this.

For fly sparging: I set the % efficiency in my recipe calculation for ~3-4% under my actual mash efficiency (78-80%). This way I can ensure that I will always get enough sugars from the mash to hit my target gravity even with a little variation in each batch's efficiency. On an 11 gallon final volume batch, I will sparge until I have collected 10 gallons of wort, stir well, and check volume and gravity. Most often, I have all the sugars I need for the brew at this point and just have to add one gallon of water to make up for final volume plus whatever additional water I expect to boil off depending on a 60 or 90 minute boil. For this method, you must be able to measure volume. The equation to figure out your your expected gravity post-boil is a simple ... pre-boil gravity * volume / post-boil volume = post-boil gravity. For example, if my target is 1.064 and my gravity was 1.070 after I had collected 10 gallons, my expected post-boil gravity would be 1.063 (70*10 gallons/11 gallons=63.6 -->1.0636 <-- don't use the decimals when doing this calculation). If I end up over my target, I just figure out how much more water I need to add. If I end up under, I continue to sparge.

By doing basing everything of off an efficiency slightly lower than I actually get, I never have to worry about the pH and gravity dropping so low that I could have tannin extraction issues.

Hope this helps a bit ... after a couple of batches where you take good notes and regularly check volumes/gravity, you should be able to figure out how your system is performing and only have to take the one pre-boil gravity reading (as long as your boil off rate is consistent).

Hope this helps.

[RoKozak]

Thanks so much for your help guys. This is REALLY clearing things up for me as to what numbers are important and when they are important.

I'll read these a few more times and probably have another question or two . Cheers!

[ajdelange]

The basic concept is quite simple. Unfortunately homebrewers like to make it more complicated than it has to be. If you use x pounds of grain and you obtain y pounds of extract in the mash the efficiency is 100*y/x. If you use x pounds of grain and have z pounds of extract in the kettle your kettle efficiency is 100*z/x. If you have w pounds of equivalent extract in the finished beer the overall process efficiency is 100*w/x. There are several points throughout the process at which you may wish to know your efficiency depending on which losses you want to account for. That's really all there is to it. The problems that home brewers introduce comes from insistence on using 'points' instead of the Plato scale and in comparing efficiency not to the amount of grain but to the amount of extract (expressed in points) that are obtained from a Congress mash of the grain in question or, more precisely, to the value that someone got at one time from a Congress mash of a grain similar to the one in question. Thus if a book says Pilsner malt yields some number of points per pound per gallon that becomes the gospel and defines 100% efficiency for ever more irrespective of the fact that different harvests from different maltsters will produce different amounts of extract. Fortunately, the differences aren't that great.

[RoKozak]

The basic concept is quite simple. Unfortunately homebrewers like to make it more complicated than it has to be. If you use x pounds of grain and you obtain y pounds of extract in the mash the efficiency is 100*y/x. If you use x pounds of grain and have z pounds of extract in the kettle your kettle efficiency is 100*z/x. If you have w pounds of equivalent extract in the finished beer the overall process efficiency is 100*w/x. There are several points throughout the process at which you may wish to know your efficiency depending on which losses you want to account for. That's really all there is to it. The problems that home brewers introduce comes from insistence on using 'points' instead of the Plato scale and in comparing efficiency not to the amount of grain but to the amount of extract (expressed in points) that are obtained from a Congress mash of the grain in question or, more precisely, to the value that someone got at one time from a Congress mash of a grain similar to the one in question. Thus if a book says Pilsner malt yields some number of points per pound per gallon that becomes the gospel and defines 100% efficiency for ever more irrespective of the fact that different harvests from different maltsters will produce different amounts of extract. Fortunately, the differences aren't that great.

Thanks AJ. I've read some of your water stuff on hbt and it's been very informative.

Of course I thought of some more questions:

If a recipe says it assume 70% brewhouse efficiency, that's simply for the grain bill and recipe formulation given? If I consistently get 75%, I'd adjust the grain bill accordingly?

When someone says brewhouse efficiency, is it to the kettle or to the fermenter? I've been reading conflicting information on what actual point in the process that brewhouse is determined.

[ajdelange]

If a recipe says it assume 70% brewhouse efficiency, that's simply for the grain bill and recipe formulation given?

Yes. But remember what that means. The author has taken a number from a table in a book and used that to calculate the number of 'points' you should acheive or has compared his 'points' to such a number.

If I consistently get 75%, I'd adjust the grain bill accordingly?

You can do that but you can also add extra water and get more beer!

When someone says brewhouse efficiency, is it to the kettle or to the fermenter? I've been reading conflicting information on what actual point in the process that brewhouse is determined.

I think 'brewhouse' is a word home brewers like to throw around. Most of us don't have 'brew houses'. I have a nice brewery but the 'brewhouse' isn't separate. As you say the separation is somewhat arbitrary. I guess to my way of thinking the dividing line would be the hot side/cold side barrier. There should not, of course, be any difference between the extract content going into a chiller and coming out. IOW efficiency measured in the kettle at knockout and in the fermenter before pitching should be the same.

Don't get too hung up on this. There is going to be some variability. We haven't, for example, discussed the effects of malt moisture content. Use the efficiency numbers as a guideline. If you are way off what's published then, of course, you have something to worry about. If not then no. You will also, of course, want to monitor what you get when you brew this beer over and over again. After a few repetitions you will know what to expect and unusually high or unusually low numbers are indicative of something not normal.

[RoKozak]

If a recipe says it assume 70% brewhouse efficiency, that's simply for the grain bill and recipe formulation given?

Yes. But remember what that means. The author has taken a number from a table in a book and used that to calculate the number of 'points' you should acheive or has compared his 'points' to such a number.

If I consistently get 75%, I'd adjust the grain bill accordingly?

You can do that but you can also add extra water and get more beer!

When someone says brewhouse efficiency, is it to the kettle or to the fermenter? I've been reading conflicting information on what actual point in the process that brewhouse is determined.

I think 'brewhouse' is a word home brewers like to throw around. Most of us don't have 'brew houses'. I have a nice brewery but the 'brewhouse' isn't separate. As you say the separation is somewhat arbitrary. I guess to my way of thinking the dividing line would be the hot side/cold side barrier. There should not, of course, be any difference between the extract content going into a chiller and coming out. IOW efficiency measured in the kettle at knockout and in the fermenter before pitching should be the same.

Don't get too hung up on this. There is going to be some variability. We haven't, for example, discussed the effects of malt moisture content. Use the efficiency numbers as a guideline. If you are way off what's published then, of course, you have something to worry about. If not then no. You will also, of course, want to monitor what you get when you brew this beer over and over again. After a few repetitions you will know what to expect and unusually high or unusually low numbers are indicative of something not normal.

Awesome, thanks again for the information. I'm brewing a Holiday Nut Brown tomorrow. Can't wait!