American Wild Ale - where to start??

[Kazi the Younger]

How is it then, that Vinnie's sour beers have that intense Acetic quality in nine months (which he claims is precisely the AIM of his souring) and according to your chart a wine barrel only gets 8.5 CC/L and a homebrew HDPE Bucket is @ 220? There wasn't a zero added to that?

From my experience, the Bucket is reaching good souring/acetic levels in 6 months. Vinnie says his beers are aged 9 months. I know he blends, but is he blending then with beer that has been souring for years? How else is he getting the souring to be that intense in 9 months with 8.5 cc/L?

I'm not trying to be the 13th Apostle of the Plastic Bucket, but from my experience it's doing an amazing job getting the kind of lambic/acetic character I love on top of those delectable horse-blanket Brett flavors. If 220 is correct, then maybe the difference between that and 8.5 isn't what matters to the bacteria. Maybe as long as there is some minimum uptake number, that's all they need.

Also, I find it interesting to take samples every month or so and see how the bacteria is working. My Oud Bruin started @ 1.063, WLP-007 took it down to 1.014, then after 6 months in the barrel it's down to 1.007. It's drying out beautifully, but there's still a great maltiness there from the caramunich I added, creating this tasty sweet and sour impression. I really dig it.

Thoughts?

[foomench]

I think you are overestimating the importance or contribution of acetic acid to the sour character of some beers, but that's just my opinion. I like a lot of sours, but I've not tasted many that have strong acetic acid character. They might be strongly sour, but not with the vinegar character of acetic acid. Duchesse de Bourgogne is a notable exception in my memory.

Or you could be correct with your supposition that once you have enough oxygen, more doesn't make a difference.

I was just reviewing Vinnie's presentation at the 2007 NHC. It doesn't come out and say where they get their sourness from, but my interpretation is that they get most of their sourness from lactic acid from Pediococcus, and from Brett. Also, I found this:

At RRBC we keep some “Acid Beer” around- this is highly acidic beer that is used for blending to bring up the acidity in a beer.

[Kazi the Younger]

"At RRBC we keep some “Acid Beer” around- this is highly acidic beer that is used for blending to bring up the acidity in a beer."

Very interesting. I suspected something like this must have been going on.

Just to clarify, when I'm talking about "Acetic" character, I'm talking about an Intense Vinegar-like pungency, not to the same
level as a straight unblended Lambic, that is a bit Too much for me, even though I do love it sometimes. You get get acid reflux with that quite fast. Maybe it would be helpful by doing a scale of 1-5, 5 being the most intense, 1 being the least

This is how I'd rate levels of Acetic character (from memory, not side by side). 5 being the most Acetic.

5. Straight Unblended Lambic - Cantillion, some Gueze
4. Russian River Sours - Consecration, Beatification, Supplication, other Gueze
3. Panil Barriquee, Italian Sours, Flanders Red
2. Douchese, Most Oud Bruin's
1. Monk's Cafe Flemish Sour, Orval (maybe orval is a zero, come to think of it)

This being said, my Oud Bruin is as sour as a pretty sour Flemish Red at this point - so not to RR's levels, but getting there.
Maybe @ 9 months they will be there? By sour I mean level of Acetic Acid Character. Maybe there is a better way to Clarify or differentiate between Acetic Acid Levels, Sour Levels, and Brett intensity - All three of these are lump-some categories that people seem to collectively refer to as "sours." Can be confusing.

[brewinhard]

Maybe you are confusing acetic character with lactic character. Acetic character is not really desired in lambics. A small amount is acceptable but a lambic should not be vinegary whatsoever. Lactic acid production by pediococcus and various strains can become sharp which is where you might be confusing acetic acid with. While lactic acid can come across as sharply sour, it still is not as pungent and is much softer than acetic acid. Go smell a bottle of white vinegar and taste a bit to get that acetic acid thing going on. Then taste a good lambic or gueze and see if you get a difference.

[Kazi the Younger]

I stand corrected - Lactic Acid, that's the one.

[foomench]

Well o.k. then. Oxygen isn't needed for lactic acid production like it is for acetobacter.

[brewinhard]

I will tell you though that I have tasted some interesting American Wild Ales that do have some acetic character to them. I definitely enjoyed that very much as it added to the overall complexity of the brew.

[Kazi the Younger]

From Vinnie's presentation on Yeast and bacterial production of acids as, related to oxygen:

"Lacto can ferment both in the presence or absence of oxygen but prefers reduced levels."

"Pedio ferments poorly in the presence of oxygen. Although Lacto plays a role, Pediococcus is responsible for the bulk of lactic acid production in Lambic and at Russian River."

"Brett is an oxidative yeast; the production of acids is an oxidative process."

"Oxygen promotes the growth of Acetobacter and retards the growth of Pediococcus & Lactobacillus. Higher levels of oxygen will cause acetic acid and ethyl acetate to be produced more quickly than lactic acids. To much acetic acid and you’ll have vinegar."

So it's safe to say over oxygenating will result in Vinegar. Other things I can conclude are:
Absence of Oxygen will allow for Lacto and Pedio to work, but not Brett or Acetobacter.
All Sour Ales have some quantity of Acetobacter in them, the trick is to not let that character become
to big - let the Lactic Acid character dominate, and brett character if desired.

Still doesn't confirm anything about plastic buckets being a good or bad vessel for making sours. By my taste they do a great job, but maybe I'm actually tasting more acetobacter then lactic acid? It's a pleasing taste nonetheless. I think if it was a really nasty vinegar taste it would be pretty obvious