Need Opinions on a Session Beer

[Brian1011]

Let me know how it comes out. I know Jamil would like the feedback too.

I will. If I'm brave enough, I might even send some in for you to review on the show!

65% seems really low to me. Do you have any ideas as as to why?

I've done two brewing sessions on my RIMS system since I built it, so I'm still learning it. 65% is my overall efficiency. I'm doing fine at mashing, my gravity after lautering shows my mash efficiency is around 80%. Where I lose it is post-boil. I'll go from 6.5 gallons in the kettle after the boil, and end up with only 5 gallons in the fermenter. The bottom of the kettle is pretty empty, so I'm at somewhat of a loss as to where I'm losing it. The only thing I can think of is the hops (I'm using whole hops in the kettle), but losing 1 1/2 gallons in about 6 oz. of hops seems really high. I've copied Jamil's kettle recirc with an imersion chiller, and it all filters through the hops that rest on the false bottom.

This is getting a little off topic, but any ideas you may have on this would be great!

[Dr Scott]

How are you measuring your post-boil amount? That might be your answer. And the whole hops will suck up a lot of wort, though I don't think 1.5 gals. Try brewing w/ pellet hops to see it there it a difference

You should use your mash efficiency in your calculations (i.e. 80%) to figure out your grain bill. Remember it's "Extract/mash" efficiency, not system/volume efficiency.

Cheers,
Dr Scott

[Brian1011]

I'm measuring my kettle volume by using a piece of copper pipe that I marked graduations in 1 quart incremements. I made this with cold water, but my post-boil measurement is taken when cold (I'm using a set-up copying Jamil's whirlpool and IC recirc).

My calculator does calculate the grain bill off of mash efficiency, but I target a final post-boil volume of 6.5 gallons, since I lose the 1 1/2 gallons of extract post-boil. Overall, that usually gives me an efficiency of 65%, which is calculated based off of grain used vs. beer achieved at the end. I guess it just depends on what you mean by effiency. I'm a packaging engineer by trade, and I am used to looking at "ingredients in" vs. "final product out" in order to measure losses. It's probably all semantics.

I'll try pellet hops and see if that gets me any change in yield. I have been using a false bottom in the kettle to keep the whole hops out of the primary fermenter. It works great at filtering the trub - I'm producing some of the clearest beers I've ever made. My whirlpool isn't really strong (using the March 809 pump), so I don't think it'll be very effective at getting all the trub into the center of the kettle. Any suggestions on how to keep the trub out of the primary when using pellets?

I guess I should try pellet hops and see how it works. It'll probably come down to which I like better: Using whole hops and filtering with the false bottom, but large losses vs. pellets, no filtering, and better yields.

[Dr Scott]

I'm measuring my kettle volume by using a piece of copper pipe that I marked graduations in 1 quart incremements. I made this with cold water, but my post-boil measurement is taken when cold (I'm using a set-up copying Jamil's whirlpool and IC recirc).

I use the same copper pipe to measure kettle volume. Did you calibrate the copper pipe w/ the IC in place or w/o? If you added the IC later, then it would give you a higher(false) reading, adding to the "apparent" losses along with what your hops absorbed. You should fill all your hoses w/ water and try to calculate the vol left in your equipment. (boil kettle dead space, hoses, pump, etc) 1-1/2 gals still seems like alot.

My calculator does calculate the grain bill off of mash efficiency, but I target a final post-boil volume of 6.5 gallons, since I lose the 1 1/2 gallons of extract post-boil. Overall, that usually gives me an efficiency of 65%, which is calculated based off of grain used vs. beer achieved at the end. I guess it just depends on what you mean by effiency. I'm a packaging engineer by trade, and I am used to looking at "ingredients in" vs. "final product out" in order to measure losses. It's probably all semantics.

Extract efficiency is the measure of "your" system .vs/ lab "theoretical" yield for the grain bill. Important for the home brewer so we can hit the target OG for a given style/recipe. More so for the big boys so they can eek more $$$ out of the ingredients.

I'll try pellet hops and see if that gets me any change in yield. I have been using a false bottom in the kettle to keep the whole hops out of the primary fermenter. It works great at filtering the trub - I'm producing some of the clearest beers I've ever made. My whirlpool isn't really strong (using the March 809 pump), so I don't think it'll be very effective at getting all the trub into the center of the kettle. Any suggestions on how to keep the trub out of the primary when using pellets?

My whirlpool wasn't very stong either when I designed it on my previous system. The pump couldn't generate enough pressure to make the wort spin at a high enough rate to do any good. So I took my whirpool outlet down from a 1/2" npt to a 3/8" copper pipe that curves about 1/3 of the way around the bottom of the kettle. this significantly increased the rotational speed of the wort. I'll see if I can get a picture of it up on the website.

I guess I should try pellet hops and see how it works. It'll probably come down to which I like better: Using whole hops and filtering with the false bottom, but large losses vs. pellets, no filtering, and better yields.

Damn... sounds like a great excuse to brew another batch!

Cheers, Dr Scott

[Brian1011]

Did you calibrate the copper pipe w/ the IC in place or w/o?

I calibrated it without the IC in the pot, since I use it to measure pre-boil and post-boil volume. I take the IC out after I've cooled down to my fermentation temp., and then take the volume measurement.

You should fill all your hoses w/ water and try to calculate the vol left in your equipment. (boil kettle dead space, hoses, pump, etc)

Hoses and pump are about 1/2 gallon when full. The kettle is virtually empty after transfering to the primary (I tip it at the end to make sure it all drains out). So that leaves 1 gallon of wort absorbed in the whole hops. Does that still seem like a lot?

Extract efficiency is the measure of "your" system .vs/ lab "theoretical" yield for the grain bill. Important for the home brewer so we can hit the target OG for a given style/recipe.

OK, I've got the picture on the term "Extract Efficiency", but, if I'm losing 1 1/2 gallons of wort at the end, that's lost extract, which I have to make up for by increasing my grain bill. My OG after lautering may be high, but then I add a enough water to the kettle to make up for my loss in boiling AND the 1 1/2 gallons of wort I expect to lose on the way to the primary.

So I took my whirpool outlet down from a 1/2" npt to a 3/8" copper pipe that curves about 1/3 of the way around the bottom of the kettle. this significantly increased the rotational speed of the wort. I'll see if I can get a picture of it up on the website.

Let me know when you get that picture up, if you wouldn't mind. I'd love to see how you did that. What kind of 3/8 copper did you use - ice maker water line?

Damn... sounds like a great excuse to brew another batch!

Amen to that!

[beer_bear]

OK, I've got the picture on the term "Extract Efficiency", but, if I'm losing 1 1/2 gallons of wort at the end, that's lost extract, which I have to make up for by increasing my grain bill. My OG after lautering may be high, but then I add a enough water to the kettle to make up for my loss in boiling AND the 1 1/2 gallons of wort I expect to lose on the way to the primary.

You're not "losing extract". It's wort that's left behind not lost.The difference of wort isn't going to be made up by boosting the grain bill. I guess one other thing for me to consider is are you doing a full volume boil?
The only other thing I can suggest is, if you adjust the grain bill for such a big loss, add back 1.5 gallons of water to get the numbers right. That's the only thing I would say. Good luck.