Tripel Water Help

[TimmyR]

I've listened to the Water Show 2-3 times so far and want to tweak my water for my Belgian Tripel, 10 gal batch next week. Below are the highlights from Palmer spreadsheet.

Source Water
Calcium - 64
Magnesium - 24
CaCo3 - 185
Sodium - 18
Chloride - 37
Sulfate - 16
pH - 7.4

Diluted 75%
Calcium - 16
Magnesium - 6
CaCo3 - 46
Sodium - 5
Chloride - 9
Sulfate - 4

RA is then 31 with low SRM 8

I added 4g Gypsum and 4g Calcium Chloride to push Calcium up 64 ppm, attain a Chloride to Sulfate ratio of 0.97 (balanced), Eff Hardness of 49 and RA -3 (Est low SRM 5).

Seems to make sense that I diluted my source water and then added salts to bump calcium up. I targeted a balanced Calcium to Sulfate ratio. I assume that when I complete my run-off and batch sparge, I should batch sparge with 75% diluted or RO water and then add a proportional amount of salts to make up for collected wort from batch sparge that was untreated (e.g. 4g of gymsum added to 11 gal mash water, assume collect 5.5 gallons from batch sparge/2nd runnings, I'd then add 2g to compenate)

[ajdelange]

The reported ion content (assuming you mean "bicarbonate" where you wrote "carbonate" is out of kilter (you list 1.5 mEq/L more cations than anions and that can't happen physically). If OTOH, 185 is the alkalinity then the profile balances better (0.9 mEq/L more cations than anions). So I'll assume you meant alkalinity as that's what is usually reported by outfits like Ward Labs and water authorites. This level of imbalance isn't great either but is typical of the quality of water reports most homebrewers seem to be given. Assuming alkalinity is 185 then the effective hardness is 209 and the water resembles that of Brussels (wrt to alkalinity and hardness).The residual alkalinity is high at 125 and the water should probably be decarbonated. Dilution is certainly one way to decarbonate and perhaps the simplest (I'd guess that Belgian brewers confronted with similar water would use lime treatment to decarbonate it). Cutting this water with 3 parts of DI water will drop the ion contents for everything and bring the RA to 33.3 (close to 1/4 of what it was). This is another reason why I assume you mean alkalinity instead of carbonate. If I assume bicarbonate of 185 the 3:1 diluted RA is 25.

An RA of 33 means you could expect a mash pH 0.06 units higher that of a distilled water mash which would put you at 5.81 or so and that's higher than you want. Before going further let me say that I have never brewed a Trippel so take the following with a grain of salt. Trippels are made with fairly soft water, noble hops and pilsner malt (plus sugar). Therefore you should probably stay away from sulfate as it renders hops harsh and this is especially so with the noble hops (you are paying for fine bitterness with them and sulfate, even at levels of around 20 or so, will roughen the bittering appreciably - this is why soft water is so important for Bohemian Pilsners). Therfore I would try to get the RA down with calcium chloride alone. If you used 6 g (I assume you mean 10 gal of water are to be treated) the residual alkalinity would go to about 2.5 and the pH would be around 5.75. Chloride would be manageable at 86 mg/L and your sulfate nice and low at 4.5. I would consider adding about 1-2% sauermalz to the grist which would drop mash pH to the 5.55 - 5.65 region but you might have objections to that approach based on authenticity considerations. I'm big on sauermalz at the moment because my LHBS just started carrying it and it's a great way to control pH w/o having to add a ton of salts or acid (which gives you the same result - more cations than you want). Of course the sauermalz leaves lactic ions in the beer but they don't seem to have the same negative effects as the inorganic ones. More of a natural food thing, perhaps.

[BigNastyBrew]

The reported ion content (assuming you mean "bicarbonate" where you wrote "carbonate" is out of kilter (you list 1.5 mEq/L more cations than anions and that can't happen physically). If OTOH, 185 is the alkalinity then the profile balances better (0.9 mEq/L more cations than anions). So I'll assume you meant alkalinity as that's what is usually reported by outfits like Ward Labs and water authorites. This level of imbalance isn't great either but is typical of the quality of water reports most homebrewers seem to be given. Assuming alkalinity is 185 then the effective hardness is 209 and the water resembles that of Brussels (wrt to alkalinity and hardness).The residual alkalinity is high at 125 and the water should probably be decarbonated. Dilution is certainly one way to decarbonate and perhaps the simplest (I'd guess that Belgian brewers confronted with similar water would use lime treatment to decarbonate it). Cutting this water with 3 parts of DI water will drop the ion contents for everything and bring the RA to 33.3 (close to 1/4 of what it was). This is another reason why I assume you mean alkalinity instead of carbonate. If I assume bicarbonate of 185 the 3:1 diluted RA is 25.

An RA of 33 means you could expect a mash pH 0.06 units higher that of a distilled water mash which would put you at 5.81 or so and that's higher than you want. Before going further let me say that I have never brewed a Trippel so take the following with a grain of salt. Trippels are made with fairly soft water, noble hops and pilsner malt (plus sugar). Therefore you should probably stay away from sulfate as it renders hops harsh and this is especially so with the noble hops (you are paying for fine bitterness with them and sulfate, even at levels of around 20 or so, will roughen the bittering appreciably - this is why soft water is so important for Bohemian Pilsners). Therfore I would try to get the RA down with calcium chloride alone. If you used 6 g (I assume you mean 10 gal of water are to be treated) the residual alkalinity would go to about 2.5 and the pH would be around 5.75. Chloride would be manageable at 86 mg/L and your sulfate nice and low at 4.5. I would consider adding about 1-2% sauermalz to the grist which would drop mash pH to the 5.55 - 5.65 region but you might have objections to that approach based on authenticity considerations. I'm big on sauermalz at the moment because my LHBS just started carrying it and it's a great way to control pH w/o having to add a ton of salts or acid (which gives you the same result - more cations than you want). Of course the sauermalz leaves lactic ions in the beer but they don't seem to have the same negative effects as the inorganic ones. More of a natural food thing, perhaps.

I don't get it....

[TimmyR]

Thnx AJ - my lack of understanding was the root of my mis-labeled alkanity, below is a cut and paste from my 2007 Ward Labs report.

pH 7.4
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 376
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.63
Cations / Anions, me/L / 6.2 /6.1

Below in pm
Sodium, Na-18
Potassium, K-3
Calcium, Ca-64
Magnesium, Mg-24
Total Hardness, CaCO3-260
Nitrate, NO3-N-5.7 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S-16
Chloride, Cl-37
Carbonate, CO3-< 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3-226
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3-185

I used John Palmer's spreadsheet and after listening to the Water Show episodes of Brew Strong, I thought that total Chloride or Sulfate was less critical to hop bitterness than the actual ratio of Chloride to Sulfate.

You are spot-on about the recipe. It is basically pilsener malt, aromatic malt and noble hops. Thanks for taking the time to explain the water adjustments. I am just starting to understand it. The pH piece is still a bit of a mystery. I like the idea of tweaking pH with malt. What are your thoughts on 5-Star's 5.2?

Cheers,

[ajdelange]

TimmyR,

Adding in the nitrate and potassium gives a better balance but the report is still a little inconsistent within itself. The numbers they give don't add up to the values they list for cations and anions. ???

That aside the notion that it is the ratio of sulfate to chloride that counts is abroad and you will find it in a least one texbook edited by no less a brewing authority than Graham Stewart but the rationale, as given in that text, is that this is so because the effects of sulfate and chloride counterbalance one another. I guess I don't personally believe that to be the case - at least not in my experience. Narziss, for example, seems to agree with me citing sulfate as being responsible for "dry" beer whereas chloride he describes as giving better flavor results ("wirkt sich beschmacklich besser aus" - he's talking about which to use for RA reduction) i.e. soft, mild and "vollmundig" (lit. "full mouthed" i.e. giving a beer with added mouthfeel). I guess I don't see those as being opposite effects and in my experience they aren't either. Sulfate has been, for me, disastrous with noble hops, leading to rough, harsh bitterness, to the point where I, as you are contemplating doing, brew beers that use them with mostly RO water (and my sulfate only runs 27 mg/L). Perhaps the balance notion works with British brewing materials and practices (it is British texts that promote this concept) but not with continental (particularly noble hops). Anyway, what I see here is a golden opportunity for you to do an experiment: one batch with low sulfate and one with high. Your experience in this matter will be better than mine especially as I have never done a trippel.

You are not the first guy to have been confused about the pH issue. It is a tricky one. Hang in there.

WRT 5-Star 5.2: According to the MSDS that comes with it is is a phosphate buffer i.e. a mix of the monobasic and dibasic phosphates of either sodium or potssium or one of each or some of each. The immediate problem with it is that pH 5.2 is more than 1 pH unit from the closest pK, 7.21, of phosphoric acid and as a general rule, one does not design a buffer for a pH more than one unit from the pK. If you do so the buffer has small "buffering capacity" i.e. ability to resist things (alkalinity in this case) that try to pull the pH away from the design pH. Indeed, 5.2 seems to have little buffering capacity and as such huge quantities would be required to move a water with any appreciable alkalinity to pH 5.2. Even the recommended dose will give you quite a bit of sodium and/or potassium (I'm guessing potassium as it is thought to be more flavor neutral). To be fair I have only played with it a little in the lab. I have never tried to brew with it. I can't find anyone who has and then checked the pH with a meter or strips.

[TimmyR]

AJ - again, thank you for your detailed response. I plan to take your advice for this batch. The batch will be a split batch of Tripel with 5 gallons fermented with WLP510 and 5 gallons fermented with WLP 530. I intend to add Calcium Chloride to bring my calcium levels up as you suggested.

I have a couple follow-up questions.

- What is the impact if I do not have the sauermalt available at my LHBS?
- If I am batch-sparging, should I adjust the sparge water to match the first mash infusion or would I batch sparge with RO water and add appropriate amounts of Calcium Chloride to the boil to ensure the appropriate concentration?

[TimmyR]

AJ - here is what the recipe looks like, if that lends to any comments you may have.

Tripel Play & Troublemaker
18-C Belgian Tripel
Author: Timmy
Date: 6/28/09



Size: 12.1 gal
Efficiency: 70.0%
Attenuation: 86.0%
Calories: 270.84 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.082 (1.075 - 1.085)
|===================#============|
Terminal Gravity: 1.012 (1.008 - 1.014)
|=================#==============|
Color: 5.14 (4.5 - 7.0)
|============#===================|
Alcohol: 9.34% (7.5% - 9.5%)
|======================#=========|
Bitterness: 34.7 (20.0 - 40.0)
|===================#============|

Ingredients:
29.0 lb Belgian Pils
0.5 lb Belgian Aromatic
6.0 lb White Table Sugar (Sucrose)
4.5 oz Tettnanger (4.1%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
28.35 g Saaz (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 10.0 min
2.0 ea White Labs WLP530 Abbey Ale Yeast
2.0 ea White Labs WLP510 Bastogne Belgian Ale Yeast

Results generated by BeerTools Pro 1.5.3

[ajdelange]

Timmy,

You can make sauermalz in the comfort of your home (but there is no guarantee it will be a strong as the commercial stuff and you might not get the same pH reduction.) To do this take a pound of pale malt, put it in a container and add just enough water to get is all wet (should be RO water I guess - no point in wasting your acid on the bicarb in your water) and then cover the container. Put it someplace where the temperature is about 47°C (117 °F) and let it sit for a couple of days. Check it from time to time. If it smells putrid or rotten in any way it got inoculated with something other than L. delkbruckii (which is found on the hulls and which is the one that you want doing the job for you) and throw it out. Start with another bunch of malt (from a different sack would probably be a good idea). After a couple of days dump the grain and the liquid into a shallow pan and oven dry. Temperatures around 200 will cause some darkening of the malt but will be quicker. When it is dry, taste it. It should have the lactic sourness and some sweetness as well from conversion of sugars if you "kilned" at higher temperatures.

Or, go to one of the big mail order houses and order a pound http://morebeer.com/view_product/7664//Acidulated_Malt

Since calcium chloride is so soluble I'd just treat the whole volume of water to be used at once or if the "HLT" isn't big enough for that just add the salt in proportion to the size of the volume being treated.

The recipe came out teeny teeny tiny - I can't read it.

Cheers and good luck with the brew.