Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:11 am

My main problem with the situation, I guess is the way the law is structured in the first place. Hansen gets to file suit because of a word within a word? If I made a product called "Son" could I file suite against a company named "Johnson" because it had that word in it? "Vermonster" is what people from Vermont call themselves. It is not based off the word "Monster." It is based off the word "Vermont." I can see what you mean about the laws changing in five years, and they applied in such a manner as to cover all forms of the word, but that is rediculous. The issue that Hansen had with Rock Art seemed to be nit-picky and should I say asshole-ish.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:24 am

Looks like almost everyone voted in favor of these reforms if this is the same thing:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2005-109

If changes in this law were a factor in making Hansen file suit to protect it's brand, some of their reaction is understandable, regardless of the size of the company.

The point that the original lawyer for the brewery also filed the name under the energy drink category for "Vermonster" is an important part of the story as well if, it is true and was left out. It might be the only reason why this action started in the first place. It is as valid a point as there are 30 different beers out there with "monster" in it's name.

Having "Energy Drinks" and "Beer" in the same general category might be what was discovered in this exercise and that if you are paying an attorney to register your beer trademark name, that she/he should know that distinction. It would be interesting to know if the first attorney had to pay for some or all of the expense of cleaning up the mess that was created by that initial error. I doubt it.

"In the Senate, the Act was championed by Senators Arlen Specter (R-PA), Orrin Hatch (R-UT), and Patrick Leahy (D-VT)."

http://www.inta.org/index.php?option=co ... tcontent=4

I also agree with the premise that often the legal system rewards those with the deepest pockets and there is a difference between fairness and justice. Having lost significant amount of money in the past when clients that were much more wealthy than I have said one thing verbally and then denied it later and having to spend large amounts of legal fees to recover some of the disputed money owed has taught me that having lawyers dot the "i" and cross the "t" in the beginning is money well spent. Even better is to do business with ethical people, as some folks will try and screw you no matter what paperwork you have.
Last edited by bcmaui on Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:56 am

TheMadHopper wrote:
Garyius wrote:You sure taught me a lesson, MadHopper. The strength of your well thought out argument sure trumped the facts.



Glad I could be of assistance.

I will extend the hand, as well. I jumped too hard in my response. Sorry.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:16 pm

TheMadHopper wrote:"Vermonster" is what people from Vermont call themselves.


I grew up in Vermont, and never referred to myself as a Vermonster. Vermonter, yes, but never Vermonster. You would get your ass kicked for saying something like that. :)

A Vermonster will always be that outrageoulsy huge sundae at Ben and Jerry's. I do want to try Rock Art...gotta pick up some next time I'm visiting family in VT.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:24 pm

One thing about the show I forgot to add - JP hit another home run with the "Dog Shit Head"

I lived in Stowe, Vermont one winter in the early 1980's, but had to leave after being laid off. Spent several months but could not find any other work and ran very low on money. Had I not, I might still be there today.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:32 pm

TheMadHopper wrote:My main problem with the situation, I guess is the way the law is structured in the first place. Hansen gets to file suit because of a word within a word? If I made a product called "Son" could I file suite against a company named "Johnson" because it had that word in it? "Vermonster" is what people from Vermont call themselves. It is not based off the word "Monster." It is based off the word "Vermont." I can see what you mean about the laws changing in five years, and they applied in such a manner as to cover all forms of the word, but that is rediculous. The issue that Hansen had with Rock Art seemed to be nit-picky and should I say asshole-ish.


The law actually changed three years ago, but we won't know what those changes mean legally for another few years.

In dealing with changes in federal law, that do not deal directly with government agencies, you are on your own with the new law until several cases have come out of the courts of appeal.

10 second version: Congress changes the law, someone decides it means X, and sues. Someone else says it means Y, or Z, another suit. Two or three years later the federal trial (district) court rules. This may or may not be published, but it has very little effect in law. Two or three years after that the appeal court (circuit) rules. There are a bunch of those, and decisions trickle out of most of them over time. If they disagree, sometimes the Supreme Court takes the case to decide what the new law means, or sometimes they work it among themselves, or sometimes the law means different things in different circuits (the worst outcome).


The reason I take trademarks to the mat and get a stong deal in cases like this is because I am worried that the law will turn out bad for the first holder--when I represent them.

Side note: when Congress has a new or changed law and people interact with the government about that law, then the federal agencies write very long 'regulations' that have the force of law most of the time and explain what Congress meant. The USPTO does not do this for trademarks because enforcement of rights rests with the trademark owner.

I represent a chain of gas station stores and we have a bunch of trademarks, one of which is for cups. I will call it "Cupster" for the trademark (it isn't, but this is an example).

I could have gotten it as a logo (fancy script, pictures of a monster looking out from the type, smiling kids or energy bolts), but after talking it over with the client we filed as a wordmark for the word Cupster. Wordmarks are harder to get and a lot of time lead to a fight.

We were only pouring soda pop, coffee, and koolaid type stuff when we filed, but I asked for class 32 without restrictions. We had some (pricey) issues and a fight, but we got the trademark and time went by. We wanted to be ready in case they started pouring fruit juice, or in case the state governments start letting stores pour beer, so it was worth it.

Someone else comes in and applies for a wordmark of "Cupalotster", also for all of class 32. I have to lead off with the nasty "Cease and Desist" letter. That way any deal we work out was "made to settle potential litigation" and that deal is not our standard way of dealing with infringers, which is a big difference legally as the next guy can't use the settlement against us in the next case.

In any event, I checked hard for wordmarks even somewhat a little close to Cupster before I filed, and I knew we were taking a bigger chance filing for all class 32, but the client agreed it was worth the risk and it paid off for us.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:17 pm

Garyius wrote:The law actually changed three years ago, but we won't know what those changes mean legally for another few years.

The whole problem with our legal system in one sentence.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:51 pm

Garyius wrote: lawyers

Or one word :wink:
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