Bock recipe formulation feedback

[nahthan]

Hey all,
I'd like to try my hand at making a traditional Bock for my next batch.
Here's the recipe I've come up with thus far. Any feedback much appreciated! Cheers,

--

Traditional Bock 1.064 - 1.072

target OG, 5gal batch: 1.068, 65% efficiency

60% munich malt, 8.90LB
20% vienna malt, 2.85LB
16% melanoidin, 2.20LB
2% carapils, .25LB
2% chocolate malt, .25LB

mash at 154F. 1.25 qt. of water per pound.

IBU: approximately 20-25.

boil: 90 minutes.
hops: hallertau mittelfruh

Yeast:
WLP833 German Bock Yeast. or WLP830 or wyeast 2206,2308.
Massive starter.

Fermentation:
Pitch .75 gal. starter and ferment at 48-50F. chill the wort to 45 before pitching. ferment on the primary for 4 weeks at 50F, chill
it to 35F and keg it, lager at about 45 for as long as tolerable before drinking.

[Danno]

Well, I'm no expert on Bocks but I have brewed a few and probably have my best one lagering right now. Here are some (but not definitive) thoughts:

Make sure the Munich is normal/light. They do seel a darker Munich and although you can use it in a Bock, you probably don't want 8.9 lbs of it with those other malts.

I used Carravienna and Caramunich in mine but your specialty malts may even be better. Be careful of the 2% chocolate because you don't want it too dark. And by Chocolate, I'll presume you're talking Carafa and not Am or Brittish Chocolate? I would use Carafa for color maybe at 1%.

I have just used 830 yeast for the first time and was very pleased with the results. I've never seen the Wyeast lager yeast ferment as fast at 48°F and drop as clean except for the Budvar yeast (Wyeast 2001) which usually has to be special ordered.

[Speyedr]

Nathan,

Looks good to me here at work. I'll take a peek at my copy of "Designing Great Beers" regarding the grain bill when I get home.

Two things I would consider right off the bat though:
1 - Decoction Mash - if you have the inkling you should do a decoction to bring you up to mash-out (approx 168f) before sparging. There is a lot of controversy over whether it is necessary, but some German Breweries STILL do it, and many people believe it adds a depth to the malt flavors that cannot come from specialty malts alone. According to Promash, Bring your mash up to 154f for the Sacch. rest. Then after 20 min,. pull 5.5qts and bring it to 165-168f for about 10min (mash out), and then up to boiling (212f), add back to the main mash to get main mash temp to 168f and mash out. After 10min., Sparge as normal. It's a little more work but no more time.

2 - Primary ferment until bubbles in airlock slow to 3-4 per minute, then rack it. I mention this way because it may not take 4 weeks to get here, and you do not need to keep in primary past this point. Get it off the Trub and into lagering temps. If you want to do a diacetyl rest nows the time, for 48 hours at room temp, then lager for as long as you can take it.

This is just my 42.5 cents worth of book smarts talking here.... so take with a few grains of... well, GRAIN!

Rob

[nahthan]

Danno, Speyedr
Thanks much for the responses! I found that Daniels' chapter on Bocks in Designing Great Beers recommended 'crystal' malts for the specialty grains. This left me confused, as the use of 'crystal' in that book usually incinuates American Crystal malts, which I would assume would taste slightly inappropriate for this style, Right? And thanks for the clarification on British chocolate vs. German carafa - I definitely want to be using German carafa here instead of British chocolate.
Yeah, my personal jury is out on the benefits of a decoction. I've done them before and found little or no benefit, but that could be any number of factors including an ignorant palate.. I do have better equipment to try this again, perhaps I will.

Here's the modified grain bill, based on the responses so far:

Grain bill:
-----------
65% German Munich - 8.3L Durst.
20% Vienna - Durst 3.8L
10% Weyermann Melanoidin - ~35L
2% Briess Caravienne - 21L
2% Briess Carapils - 1.18L
1% Weyermann Carafa I - 375L

Changes:
- Using Carafa I instead of British Chocolate.
- Bumped the Melanoidin content down to 10%.
- Added the difference back into the Munich malt.

Any comments on the Munich/Vienna ratio for a traditional Bock? I never found much clear information on this.

Mash
------
Single decoction, if at all possible.

Yeast & Fermentation schedule:
---------------------------------------
People seem to have a preference for WLP833 or Wyeast 2206 over the other two.
They look very similar, although seem to be from different sources.
- WLP833: Attenuation: 70-76; Flocculation: Medium; Optimum Ferm. Temp: 48-55
- Wyeast 2206 Flocculation - medium; apparent attenuation 73-77%. (46-58° F, 8-14° C)

Seems like either one will do, but 2206 may ferment at a slightly lower temp..

[Danno]

I find it interesting in how many people go on about Ray Daniels book DGB. Use the brewing information from it (and that part is good) but the recipes are from a time before we had all of the choices that we have today. It was probably difficult, if not impossible, for homebrewers to get Continental Pils or Munich malt, Carafa, true Hallertauer from Germany, 100 different yeasts (although yeast plays a lesser part in lagers), etc. It's amazing where we have come since 1990. Most of it is due to the internet where we can but from homebrew shops all over the country.

I'm not just picking on Ray. Any book written pre- 1995 or so should be questioned with respect to recipes.

[Speyedr]

The book is definitely a bit dated, but it does have a lot of good historical content. Remember too that in the conclusions he is stating a blend of recommendations for NHBC 2nd rounders, back before 1990. He doesn't just say what he would do, he says what others have done and have been successful with, even though it was a while ago. For instance, in the Bock section he begins by saying that your grain bill should be up to 90% Munich for historical accuracy, but then he goes on to recommend Crystal, as Nathan pointed out. He says how most breweries are employing triple decoctions, and then says that you can do fine with NONE, and throw in some extract while you're at it. Just boil longer for the extra Melanoidins you'll get in the kettle.
There is a lot of good info out there mixed with dated stuff, and this book is no exception. It is however a decent place to start and investigate a style that is new to the brewer.