Jamil's Bitter Recipes In Competition

[KlosterFocke]

Just got my scoresheets back from a NC competition that I entered Jamil's OB and Special Bitter in, and I got my ass reamed for it being TOO ROASTY. Lots of nice comments, all followed with "too roasty; not to style".

Aroma, flavor; hops good, malt nice - Roast detracts from....
Nice low head, but roastiness detracts from visual enjoyment.
Nice mouthfeel, but roastiness distracts from texture.
Fill level, good- But roastiness makes it look low......
Blah, blah, blah

Anyone else entered these recipes? I know the BJCP doesn't mention roast, but it is damned good ale. I keep a keg around for brew days and drink quite a bit of it and will continue to do so. Maybe those judges just have more Ninkasi's than Jamil......

But I'm not bitter (The roastiness doesn't allow it to come through).

[Brew Engineer]

But I'm not bitter (The roastiness doesn't allow it to come through).

Sorry, I don't have experience with Jamil's recipe, per se. I just really found your closing quote amusing...

I did enter an ordinary bitter into a competition last year, that was based on Jamil's show recipe (before the book came out). I changed a few minor things, but used Crystal 120 and some Victory. I got a 32, and a really good response.

Did you really get the "roastiness detracts from visual enjoyment"?? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you got really dumb judges...

either way, just enter it into more competitions, and when you win the next one, donate to the BN.

[KlosterFocke]

OK, maybe they didn't really say some of those things.......
It just seemed that way. One guy was a National judge, too. He still gave one a 29.

But they were down on the special roast (1/4 #), which Jamil calls for in both. It does really add to the beer, I think. I am really curious to see how it plays elsewhere.

[chrishw]

Remember- not all judges are created equal- I've had 3 give one of my beers 2 thumbs up- awesome- don't change a thing- and then one give it like a 22- totally out of style-

Guess which one is the sore thumb?

I really think the BJCP needs some sort of quality control. there are a TON of awesome judges- but there are also some really bad ones who give the rest a bad name.

[WitsEnd]

Could something in KF's water profile be bringing out the roastiness?

[DannyW]

Could be lots of things, water chemistry is certainly one of them. Could be a low mash temp which fermented most of the sweet away just leaving roast behind. Could be more thoroughly crushed dark grains, which would let more of that roasty goodness get extracted from the husks. Could be a different brand of roasted malt. Maybe JZ's is 450lov and yours is 550lov. Could be the luck of the draw where you were in the flight.

Best way to get a more thorough answer is to enter the same beer in multiple competitions and see which comments show up over and over again. Those are the ones on which you can concentrate and start changing things.

[jamilz]

Did you use Special Roast or something else? Special Roast is a 50L malt, and really doesn't have a lot of roasty flavor.

I think either you used the wrong ingredients or one judge made one passing remark and you're blowing it out of proportion or you got a judge that knows nothing about the style. That recipe is spot on for a special bitter.

[KlosterFocke]

But I thought you said a pound of Black Patent, JZ......

I'm not contesting the roast, it's been consistently there since my first batch, and I've brewed this at least a dozen times. 3 out of 4 judges made remarks on it in their aroma, flavor, and overall impressions. Oddly, the novice judge made no mention of roast at all. I was quick to assume the special "roast" was the source, like some assume an ordinary "bitter" should be similar to a Ruination. After chewing some SR, it doesn't taste roasty. It's just that the base malt and 120 are kind of standard issue for bitter, so I gave them a pass. I've experimented with adding lower crystals in addition to this recipe, but most batches have been strictly by the book. The only other variations in the ale have been between yeasts, and that, of course, hasn't impacted the roast character.

Ordinary Bitter and Special Bitter:
Crisp and Munton Marris Otter (AG) 8-10#
(earliest batches) Marris Otter LME (B3), John Bull, M&F Light LME
Briess Crystal 120 1/2#
Briess Special Roast 50L 1/4# (NOT Special B !)

Hops: Fuggles, EKG, Organic KG, First Gold, Target.

Yeasts: Wlp 002, 005, 026. WYeast 1968, 1098, Thames Valley. SF04

Water: No mineral additions; have used 5 Star 5.2 in some batches, not in others. Two different water sources-Early extract batches (PUR filtered city water low hardness, low minerals). Current (AG) Well water, medium hardness and low minerals).

Mash:149-154, most 152-153
Boil:70-100 minute(AG) 45-70 extract

My kolsch, Dortmunder, AIPAs, bocks etc. don't have any roastiness or astringency using the same water profile, equipment, or techniques. I smell the roast as soon as I mash in, so we can work backwards from there. Maybe it's the 120 or some weird astringency issue. Just curious if anyone else has a similar result.

As for my confidence in the recipe, there is a reason I haven't wavered in the base recipe. I have not brewed a bad Jamil recipe (IMO) yet, and my only two ribbons were straight up "Brewing Classic Styles" recipes.