Witbier - Common rubber taste in home brewed examples?

[EvilFrog]

I am hoping you guys can help me track down what I perceive as an unmistakable rubber or garden hose type of off-flavor I am finding in Witbiers I have brewed as well as other home brewed examples.

In my case, I have never used anything other than silicone tubing for any brew day liquid transfers and I am careful to knock out all chlorine/chloramine from any water I use in the process (Campden tabs). So I don't feel that it is actual rubber flavors picked up from equipment or any downstream medicinal-like compound that is formed from the chlorine. Plus, I doubt it is any part of my standard process as this flavor has never appeared in any of my other beers. If this were a systemic issue I would expect to pick it up in my other more subtle beers like German Pilsner but I don't. It is even more curious that I am picking it up in other brewer's beers but only in wits. I have also never tasted this in a commercial example either.

It might help to understand my recent history brewing/sampling this style:

- Before 2009 - I had never picked up on this flavor before
- Spring 2009 - I followed the recipe in Jamil's BCS to the letter and it came out great. Still no off flavor detected.
- Summer 2009 - brewed again. This time stepping up the orange zest a little and used the zest of tangelos as well. This brew day also happens to be the day I replaced an o-ring on a weldless fitting in my brew kettle. This was the first time I noticed the flavor and it was nearly undrinkable. It was like I was drinking it out of a hot garden hose and the taste did not fade much with time. I attributed the taste to the o-ring and replaced with a different one.
- Late Summer 2009 with people at work still asking when I was going to bring more wit, I tried again. I was too embarrassed of my last attempt to share it. I now have a different brew system entirely. I kept the recipe the same as my last attempt thinking the only issue was the o-ring. Wham! I am stuck with 10 gallons of ribber wit this time around. I went to work and told them I would not be bringing wit to the office again in the foreseeable future.
- Spring 2010 - attended Bluebonnet brewing competition and sampled a couple different wits on club night. Both samples had the same off flavor to varying degrees. Had the opportunity to speak to the brewer (happened to be the guy pouring for their club). When I asked who the brewer was and he said "Me.", I realized that I could not think of a polite way of asking why it tasted like the Michelin Man took a leak in my cup. I ended up just asking him if he could share same details about the recipe and his process. He politely recounted a recipe and process that sounded identical to those from BCS. The same steps I followed with the same results. This did not get me anywhere.
- Spring 2011 - tasted another wit from another club at this years Bluebonnet and this time the rubber taste was so overwhelming that I had to find a place to dump the rest of my sample. This time I did not bother to ask to speak to the brewer.
- Present - I want to try again to brew a clean witbier but am afraid. Very afraid! I want one that turned out the way my first BCS attempt turned out.

One working theory I have is that a little too much citrus zest can tip the scales from tasty to rubbery? Or is this a risk when using fresh zest at all. Maybe only certain varieties of oranges should be avoided? I am wondering if I should switch to dried orange peel. I was careful with the other ingredients and consistent between my attempts. I used the football-shaped coriander fresh from the Indian Market and organic chamomile tea (which I sampled as a tea by itself and nothing hinted of rubber).

This is also the only style I ever use WLP400 with so I have to wonder if this is a flavor this yeast can express under a particular set of circumstances. I always oxygenate consistently and control my fermentation temps very carefully.

I apologize for a post that ended up being quite a bit longer than I had intended but I need your help. I am really hoping one of you has experienced the same thing and isolated the cause.

Please share your ideas.

[edisonst]

I dont brew a lot of wits but using a phenolic beer like weisse as an example I would say water source or pitching temperature. My water varies through out the year as to weather or not it is disinfected with chlorine(my preference) or chloramines. Chloramines are harder to remove than chlorine from what i have read and heard. Do you know how warm or cool you fermented and pitched...thats what I would look at first.

[Quin]

It may be something that you have become extremely sensitive to that is not as apparent to others. You might try entering your beer in some competitions or take it to someone you trust with a good palette to see if they taste it also. You might also try some commercial examples to see if you taste it there too.

[thatguy314]

Do you wash the fruit before you zest them? Many people forget to do that. There can be chemicals or a waxy coat on citrus fruit that you'd be adding directly to your beer.

[EvilFrog]

Thanks for all the responses.

Chloramines are harder to remove than chlorine from what i have read and heard. Do you know how warm or cool you fermented and pitched...thats what I would look at first.

My understanding is that Campden Tabs are effective at removing both chlorine and chloramines. That is what I used for all my brewing water and it has not been an issue in any other style I brew. I followed the BCS guidance on fermentation temps. Fermented at 68F and at the tail end allowed it so slowly rise to 72F. Do you suppose that is the issue? Does this seem a little warm? I also recall that in one or more of my WLP400 fermentations that I had to rouse the yeast a couple times to keep them active.

It may be something that you have become extremely sensitive to that is not as apparent to others. You might try entering your beer in some competitions or take it to someone you trust with a good palette to see if they taste it also. You might also try some commercial examples to see if you taste it there too.

I have tried commercial examples specifically looking for this flavor and it is not to be found. Good suggestion on the the competition entry. I guess I can swallow the shame of a score in the teens if it will help me solve this puzzle. I have gotten the feedback of friends and family and all recognized something was off. Most even identified it as 'rubbery' without any coaxing from me. None of these were judges though. My brother attended the latest club night I spoke of and he recognized the same thing in the sample we got there. I cannot speak to that brewer's process but it is very strange that we get the same taste from the same beer style.

Do you wash the fruit before you zest them? Many people forget to do that. There can be chemicals or a waxy coat on citrus fruit that you'd be adding directly to your beer.

All the citrus I used was organic which is supposed to be free of chemicals but you never know. I did wash and scrub anyway just to remove and soils that might have been there from handling along the way. This is my practice with any produce I buy.

Maybe this is not as widespread of a flaw as I was thinking. I was really expecting someone to know exactly what I was describing. I wonder if the flavor is unique to some locally grown citrus? I live in Texas and all the other off-flavor samples I have had were from local brewers. Hmmm.

[Steelers&Beer]

change all your spices and make sure when you zest your fruit that you are not getting any of the pith. I also agree with Quin that it might just be you. Give it to a couple people that you trust and let them tell you. Do NOT ask them,"Does it taste like rubber?" "Do you get a rubbery taste?"... Just ask them what they think of the beer. You could also try using the Forbidden Fruit yeast from Wyeast instead of WLP 400. Did you start to oxygenate your wort with o2? Replace filter and canister and tubing. Oxygenation stone for CO2? replace tubing. Lots of variables to check. Good luck solving your problem. Drew

[EvilFrog]

Steelers&Beer I will take your advice on completely changing up the spices and the yeast on my next attempt.

I have been careful to take only the zest and leave behind the pith. The fresh zest thing seems to me to be the biggest factor that sets the typical home brew and commercial recipes apart. Again, I don't pick up this flavor in commercial examples. Are the pros not generally using the dried stuff for cost and convenience sake?

As I stated earlier I am getting that comment from people where I have not previously suggested a rubber taste:

I have gotten the feedback of friends and family and all recognized something was off. Most even identified it as 'rubbery' without any coaxing from me.

Yes, O2 has been part of my process for years and I have only ever experienced this from my own beers twice (both cases were witbiers). I boil the stone between batches. Good point on replacing the tubing, it is probably about time for that again.

[snowcapt]

EvilFrog. Changing tubes is a great idea, for sure. Rarely do I use the same tubing more than 4-5 times for transfers, etc. After that I use it for moving the wort from MT to kettle and other hot-side applications. I get 20 ft lengths for like 3 bucks.
Also, switch out your spices. You never know how long them suckers were on the shelf in the store, and also how long have they been in your cupboard.
As far as the fruit being organic....poop is organic, too. Wash them regardless of where they came from or how they were grown. I am just saying that there usually isnt a nice bathroom facility in the orchards and fields, and we all know about the hygenic routines of the patchoulli wearing crowd.
I hope this helps.
Switch tubes, and use fresh, CLEAN fruit and spices.
Good luck!