Munich Helles Malts - Help me diagnose my palate

[Omahawk]

I would really like to put together a Munich Helles recipe similar to St. Augustiner. After spending the summer sampling the Helles' of Hacker-Pschoor, Weihenstephaner and Aecht Schlenkerla, I liked them all but I developed a strong preference for St. Augustiner's Helles. To me the Augustiner taste is a very simple, clean and perfect malt profile - the precise taste that I expect from a Helles. The other ones I've had are very good, but seem to have a taste component that I don't care for quite as much as Augustiner. Any chance this is melanoidin malt? I own a copy of Brewing Classic Styles, and have listened to the Munich Helles Jamil show, and know that Jamil uses melanoidin malt in his Helles. I was thinking of using Jamil's general recipe (pilsner and a little munich malt), but subbing a small portion of carapils in place of the melanoidin malt, recognizing that I'm subbing "toastiness" for some added "mouthfeel".

Am I diagnosing this correctly? Should I just follow the pope's recipe and forget about it?

Thanks.

[BDawg]

Try brewing it 2 ways (or 3) --

1) 100% pils malt and no melanoidan and no carapils
2) w/ the melanoidan and no carapils (sounds like you already did this)
3) w/ the carapils but no melanoidan

Then compare the three of them.

Also, there may be some yeast derived differences. you might want to go with:

White Labs
WLP820 Octoberfest/Marzen Lager Weihenstephan 206
WLP830 German Lager Weihenstephan 34/70
WLP833 Bock Lager Ayinger Brewery

or
Wyeast
2206 Bavarian lager Weihenstephan 206
2308 Munich lager Wisenschaftliche Station #308 (Munich) (This yeast throws a LOT of diacetyl -- D-Rest is Mandatory)
or even
2450 Denny’s Favorite 50 Brewtek CL50
If none of these matches the flavor profile, you might try the 2042 Danish lager Miller via Carlsberg from Wyeast too.

HTH-

[Travisty]

Jason, I'm going to be brewing a Helles soon too. I'm going to just use Jamil's recipe first as a starting point, then tweak from there. It's kind of silly to adjust someone else's recipe to better suit your tastes without knowing how it tastes to start with.

My hunch is that most of the character that differentiates the different breweries is going to come from the fermentation. If you could find the Augustiner yeast that would help I bet.

Also, I'm guessing that the munich and melanoidin malts in Jamil's recipe are there to obtain some of the character of the commercial examples that are difficult to get on a homebrew level with just pilsener malt. Maybe to simulate a decoction mash though I don't know if decoctions were/are traditionally used for Helles.

[Omahawk]

Damnit! Why won't you people give me a definitive, quantifiable answer to a question based on the whims of my unique taste buds?

Bdawg - you assume I brew more than I do, but perhaps in the interest in science I could ramp up my "controlled malt experimentation". Also - thanks for the advice on the lager yeasts. I failed to mention that this is my first stab at lagers, so it's much appreciated and NEEDED.

Travis - I suppose if you're right. I have not brewed with Melanoidin malt, so I guess that means I should not imagine the taste it imparts. I suppose this means I need to brew two batches. Geez this homebrewing thing takes time and money to do right. I had the same impression re: decoction mash - melanoidin malt connection as you - I think perhaps it was brought up on one of the old Jamil shows (???).

[Quin]

I've settled on 95% pils and 5% munich and ferment with Wyeast 2124 Bohemian lager at 48F. It's very clean and spot on for Augustiner. I think fresh Augustiner is a little closer to 25 IBUs.

[Otterbrew]

This is a great style, and I am sure that you will end up with some tasty beer with any of the recipe suggestions here. Given the fact that this will be your first lagers, just remember to be patient, and dont freak out if it takes a day or two to see activity in the fermentor. Keep that baby at 50F for several weeks and you will be happy.
Good luck,
-Greg

[Omahawk]

Brewing tonight, mash is done and I'm now boiling. This is the recipe that I went with.

11.75 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 92.52 %
0.75 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.91 %
0.20 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 1.57 %
1.00 oz Tettnang [5.10 %] (60 min) Hops 18.3 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [3.00 %] (30 min) Hops 5.7 IBU
2 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager with 1.7 gallon starter
OG: 1.053
FG (est) 1.014
4.6 SRM

5.7 gallon into Better Bottle.

I went with the Bohemian Lager yeast, since the LHBS had it really fresh and it's supposed to be malty. I also pitched 2 packages into a big starter since I don't have a stir plate (I swirled the bucket every 30 minutes or so). I will plan a trade with Travisty, who wisely is following Jamil's recipe to a "T", to see the recipe differences. My next attempt will use the same yeast, but sub the Melanoidin malt for carapils.