Moving to Tank Water

Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:26 pm

Hi Guys,

I'm moving soon and the water at my new location will be from rainwater tanks.

Being fairly new and not yet having gotten to the water chemistry business as yet... it's probably a year off at least, was contemplating in a broad sense how this would affect my beers at a time when I'm only just starting to get some consistency going.

I suspect the mineral content will be lower, so I'd need to start adding some of that in and then adjust to taste for future recipes and batches.

Does anyone else working off tank water have a good starting point addition for this? (say x grams of gypsum per xl of water or something along those lines etc...)

I'm slightly feeling a little overwhelmed reading some of the water chem stuff that's out there.

Appreciate any assistance or guidance you can provide :jnj

Crofty

(nb. I posted this over at AHB too, so don't feel like you have to respond to me on both forums)
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Crofty
 
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Re: Moving to Tank Water

Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:57 pm

Hi, I'm mostly retarded and have jumped into the water chemistry pool recently too. The three biggest things that have helped me is 1. Getting my water lab tested so I know what I have. 2. Reading the Water Book. 3. Using a water spreadsheet to play with mineral adjustments.

Getting your mash pH is the most important thing and doing the above things will help with that. Oh and buy a digital pH meter too.
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TheeMattSmith
 
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Re: Moving to Tank Water

Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:48 pm

+1 to getting the water tested. ward labs has a test specific for brewers that tells you all you need to know. I personally really like bru'n water for water adjustments. I don't own a pH meter so I start with RO and trust to Martin and it seems to work out quite well.

I would guess your rain water is more or less at distilled levels of minerals, ie. 0 so you will need to add some calcium at a minimum. the salts I use mostly are calcium chloride and gypsum. sometimes if I'm feeling froggy and there is some in the bathroom I'll use a touch of epsom salts but I didn't really see any benefit when I have done that.

I use lactic acid for pH adjustments. with very soft water a little goes a long way. I got a 6 ounce bottle about 2 years ago and it's still more than half full.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"

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morticaixavier
 
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Re: Moving to Tank Water

Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:56 am

Here's what I go by. I start with R.O. water but I suspect rainwater will easily be soft enough to use the same guidelines. I decided a while back to stop angsting over it and just do what A. J. DeLange says. Has worked out very well for me.

TLDR: Start near the bottom with the word "Baseline"

"By Ajdelange


One of the first things a beginning brewer is told is that beer is typically 95% water and that, as a consequence of this, getting the water one brews with “correct” for the style is very important. He is also told that most beer styles evolved the way they did because of the nature of the water with which they were originally brewed. Those statements are true enough but the process of understanding what is “correct” and the process of going between the water one has and the “correct” water is, to many, one of the most daunting aspects of brewing.

Many beginning and advanced brewers assume that it is necessary when brewing, for example, a Munich Helles, to duplicate Munich water and there are many places where one can find ion profiles for Munich water and spreadsheets into which one can insert those profiles and details of one’s own water and be given advice on what minerals to add to duplicate Munich. There are multiple potential problems with this approach. First, published water reports are very often wrong. Second, it is not enough to know what Munich water is like, You must also know what the brewer did to make the beer with the existing water. In the case of Helles, for example, the water needs to be softened. Finally, the spreadsheets often calculate salt additions based on simplifications of the chemistry involved, consideration of things that are essentially irrelevant (beer color, chloride to sulfate ration) and reliance on models of things (e.g. effects of dark malt on mash pH) that really can’t be modeled very well. When all the approximations are good the result can be fine but when they aren’t the result can be salt addition recommendations that can have a detrimental effect on the beer,

In this note we are going to take a very simple approach to brewing water preparation. In tailoring water we seek 2 goals. The first, arguably more important than the second, is to be sure that the water properties are consistent with mash pH in a suitable range (5.1 – 5.5). The second is that, on the one hand, the mineral content not add or cause flavors which the drinker may not like and on the other that minerals which have a positive effect on the beer, be available in adequate quantity, The first goal cannot be achieved by the use of water treatment alone. Acid is usually required. This is traditionally supplied in German brewing by the use of lactic acid in the form of sauermalz (acidulated malt) or sauergut (wort fermented by lactic bacteria) while in British practice a blend of mineral acids is usually employed. Thus the recommendations that follow also specify acid additions.

The following recommendations apply to “soft” water. Here we will define soft as meaning RO or distilled water or any water whose lab report indicates alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3 – all other numbers to follow mg/L), sulfate less than 20 (as sulfate – Ward Labs reports as sulfur so multiply the SO4-S number by 3 to get as sulfate), chloride less than 20, sodium less than 20, calcium less than 20 and magnesium less than 20. If your water has numbers higher than these, dilute it with RO or DI water. A 1:1 dilution reduces each ion concentration to 1/2, a 2:1 dilution to 1/3 and so on. If your water contains chloramines add 1 campden tablet per 20 gallons (before any dilution)

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

These recommendations should get you a good beer if not the best beer. To get the best you should vary the amounts of the added salts noting carefully whether a change benefits or detriments your enjoyment of the beer. Additional sulfate will sharpen the perceived hops bitterness. Additional chloride will round, smooth and sweeten the beer. Add or decrease these in small amounts.

Those serious about getting the best possible results should buy a pH meter and check mash pH increasing or decreasing the amount of sauermalz to get pH around 5.3. Unfortunately the strips don’t seem to work very well."
"If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs."
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Elbone
 
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Re: Moving to Tank Water

Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:32 pm

That's fine except how do you know how much the particular batch of sourmalz will affect your pH? it's just malt sprayed with lactic acid after all. skip it and go for 88% lactic acid. doesn't go stale and it's standardized so you get the same effect with the same amount every time.
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morticaixavier
 
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Re: Moving to Tank Water

Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:01 am

Cheers Guys,

all good info and a great start.

appreciate the assistance

Crofty
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Crofty
 
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Re: Moving to Tank Water

Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:45 pm

morticaixavier wrote:That's fine except how do you know how much the particular batch of sourmalz will affect your pH? it's just malt sprayed with lactic acid after all. skip it and go for 88% lactic acid. doesn't go stale and it's standardized so you get the same effect with the same amount every time.


Well, I have to assume Weyermann is putting at least a little effort into producing a consistent product. I have used 88% lactic acid before when I was out of sauermalz, (I keep it around to invert sugar) but I prefer the sauermalz. It feels more like brewing and less like chemistry lab. Either approach should produce the same result.
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Elbone
 
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Re: Moving to Tank Water

Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:44 pm

Elbone wrote:
morticaixavier wrote:That's fine except how do you know how much the particular batch of sourmalz will affect your pH? it's just malt sprayed with lactic acid after all. skip it and go for 88% lactic acid. doesn't go stale and it's standardized so you get the same effect with the same amount every time.


Well, I have to assume Weyermann is putting at least a little effort into producing a consistent product. I have used 88% lactic acid before when I was out of sauermalz, (I keep it around to invert sugar) but I prefer the sauermalz. It feels more like brewing and less like chemistry lab. Either approach should produce the same result.



I'm sure weyermann is. My point is simply that it can't be as accurate as just using the liquid. It's fine, lots of folks use the acid malt and that's cool, I'm just saying it's essentially 88% lactic acid on a delivery system that makes it more difficult to use accurately.

and yes, it will get you more or less the same place. But once you are dealing with water chemistry anyway and it's so easy to be reasonably exact I just don't get the point of intentionally being less exact.

Now, if sourmalz was malt that had itself undergone some period of lactic fermentation I maybe could be convinced otherwise.
"Creativity is the residue of wasted time"

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morticaixavier
 
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