Gueuze in Buckets?

[GilesTH]

I want to start putting together a 1-, 2-, & 3-year sour beer to turn into a Gueuze. I don't have the money to get casks, but I want to make sure I can take small samples to test flavor without breaking the pelical. Since I can't do the nail-in-the-barrel trick, I was thinking of using bottling buckets as the aging vessels and then using the spigot to pour small samples. My biggest concern is that the spigot will get gunked up too easily by yeast and by-products of the souring process. Is this something I should concern myself with? Or should I just move forward with this plan.

For the record, I'm limited to 3-gallon batches, so I'm actually going to do this in 2.5 gallon buckets with a spigot added, leaving .5-.75 of a gallon for headspace.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[adamK]

I would be concerned about the oxygen permeability of the bucket turning your geuze into malt vinegar, especially over 3 years.

If getting under the pellicle is your main concern, a turkey baster or wine thief should minimize the damage.

[GilesTH]

I would be concerned about the oxygen permeability of the bucket turning your geuze into malt vinegar, especially over 3 years.

I thought buckets were less permeable than casks. And from what I remember of the second show with Homer, if it's fully fermented, it won't really turn into vinegar (I could be wrong there, though, but the way I understood it was that the sugars that get turned to alcohol are the same sugars used, in a different manner, to turn a liquid to vinegar).

[adamK]

I believe the permeability of the large casks generally used (60 gallon barrel) is significantly smaller than a plastic bucket, but I could be mistaken. A homebrewer named Raj Apte (I think) has discussed these things, but I could not find the site with his data. I would think a carboy would be your best solution. The Raj Apte recommendation is to use a chunk of wood as your carboy stopper which matches the O2 permeability of barrels. I recently did a test with using carboys and buckets for a sour (standard airlocks), and after a year the buckets did show a very slight acetic characteristic, which I would assume over a few years would become undrinkable (though hopefully is a nice touch in the blend we made).

There will be some sugars left for the bugs to eat, and in an environment containing alcohol and oxygen, they will make acetic acid. I don't have a decent enough background in biochemistry to better explain it, though.

Another problem that might arise is with the spigots on bottling buckets leaking over time.

Good Luck however you age this, and let us know how it goes!

[spiderwrangler]

I would be concerned about the oxygen permeability of the bucket turning your geuze into malt vinegar, especially over 3 years.

I thought buckets were less permeable than casks. And from what I remember of the second show with Homer, if it's fully fermented, it won't really turn into vinegar (I could be wrong there, though, but the way I understood it was that the sugars that get turned to alcohol are the same sugars used, in a different manner, to turn a liquid to vinegar).

You are wrong. It is the ethanol that gets converted into acetic acid, so alcohol production has to happen first. That's why you can buy red wine vinegar... (vinegar also mean 'sour wine').

[GilesTH]

I would be concerned about the oxygen permeability of the bucket turning your geuze into malt vinegar, especially over 3 years.

I thought buckets were less permeable than casks. And from what I remember of the second show with Homer, if it's fully fermented, it won't really turn into vinegar (I could be wrong there, though, but the way I understood it was that the sugars that get turned to alcohol are the same sugars used, in a different manner, to turn a liquid to vinegar).

You are wrong. It is the ethanol that gets converted into acetic acid, so alcohol production has to happen first. That's why you can buy red wine vinegar... (vinegar also mean 'sour wine').

This is why I ask questions rather than try to remember something I heard a few months ago. Especially since I've been going through the archives for the first time and I get through at least 2 episodes a day. Nothing tends to stick in my brain for very long.

[GilesTH]

I believe the permeability of the large casks generally used (60 gallon barrel) is significantly smaller than a plastic bucket, but I could be mistaken. A homebrewer named Raj Apte (I think) has discussed these things, but I could not find the site with his data. I would think a carboy would be your best solution. The Raj Apte recommendation is to use a chunk of wood as your carboy stopper which matches the O2 permeability of barrels. I recently did a test with using carboys and buckets for a sour (standard airlocks), and after a year the buckets did show a very slight acetic characteristic, which I would assume over a few years would become undrinkable (though hopefully is a nice touch in the blend we made).

There will be some sugars left for the bugs to eat, and in an environment containing alcohol and oxygen, they will make acetic acid. I don't have a decent enough background in biochemistry to better explain it, though.

Another problem that might arise is with the spigots on bottling buckets leaking over time.

Good Luck however you age this, and let us know how it goes!

That's a good point about the spigot. Two weeks as a primary vessel (for mead, for example) isn't much of an issue from what I've seen, but I can see how long-term aging would probably wear away at the rubber washers that are supposed to prevent leaks.

I'll have to do some more research on the best method, but I'm really glad I haven't wasted a brew day

[spiderwrangler]

I've always been worried about accidentally kicking and cracking a spigot whenever anyone talks about using it as a vessel for storage...