Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:01 pm

At the bottom of the story from your link:

"The Supreme Court decision motivated wholesalers across the country to push for legislation that would strengthen their traditional role. The Associated Beer Distributors of Illinois--which doled out more than $335,000 in campaign contributions to state legislators in the first half of 2006, the most it has contributed in any six month period in at least the last decade, according to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch--backed a bill that would have severely restricted how much product Illinois wineries could sell directly to customers........"

Chicago area distributors seem to be rewarded for their generous "donations" to Illinois politicians. I'm sure it's not the only state where this happens, but Chicago often harbors the worst examples of current political corruption as business as usual. The second to last Governor of Illinois is in jail (a Republican) and the last one (a Democrat) looks like he will be going off soon as well.

Add that to the trademark issue that was on the show and this industry is not very friendly to the little guy, with some states being worse than others.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:43 am

I am a business attorney, and I deal a fair amount with federal trademarks.

This post is about Vermonster. First, I understand that you wanted to be on the brewer's side, and that is fine. However, you allowed him to use your show to spread disinformation. That is not fine.

Here are the facts, from the TESS server at USPTO.gov.
1. Rock Art's attorney filed application number 77765863 on June 23, 2009.
2. The application was for a "standard character mark" of The Vermonster. That means it wanted to trademark the rights to the entire word, not just a design logo.
3. The application was filed for class 32, which is beer AND soft drinks.
From the TARR server:
4. The application has not been published by the government, that is scheduled for November.
5. The first attorney Rock Art used is a mill in Arizona. That attorney tried to claim the word mark for all class 32, which includes energy drinks.
6. Rock Art’s new attorney, after the fight started, limited the class 32 application to only beer, excluding specifically energy drinks.
From a search on Hansen at USPTO:
7. Hansen has a class 32 on many variants of “Monster” as a wordmark, just not the word Monster itself standing alone.
8. Hansen is applying for even more variants now, and those variants predate Rock Art’s application.
From trademark law:
9. The USPTO does not protect Hansen in the Rock Art application review. This is directly from the USPTO brochure “We do not decide whether you have the right to use a mark.”
10. Trademark law uses two concepts, likelyhood of confusion, and dilution. Beer and energy drinks are unlikely to be confused, but using Vermonster and Monster for the same class of drinks could be dilution. (Depending on how the new Federal Trademark Dilution Act changes shake out.)
11. If a trademark holder fails to defense it trademark and dilution occuars, other people can start using thetTrademark. In other words, if Vermonster ends up diluting Hansen’s trademark, someone else can start marketing Better Monster Energy Drink.
12. The controlling factor is a law that was radically changed in 2006, and most resulting trademark cases haven’t hit the feeral court of appeals yet so Hansen doesn’t know what its rights are.


Conclusions:

Rock Art kept telling you over and over that since the federal government accepted its application, Hansen should have shut up. That is gross misinformation at best, and more likely it was deliberate misinformation. The government does not protect Hansen’s marks, that is up to Hansen.

Hansen jumped on the problem quickly, in fact even before the Vermonster application was published.

Rock Art hired a mill as their first trademark attorney, who failed to limit the mark to ‘beer only’ in the first application. In other words, Rock Art said in its application that it wanted to own rights to all class 32, including energy drinks. The new attorney fixed that after Hansen sent its letter.

Hansen had to fight, otherwise it could end up losing its rights to Monster Energy drinks, depending on how federal courts publish descisions over the next few years on the massive changes to FTDA.

Rock Art used your show to claim, falsely, that since the government accepted the appication that was all that was needed. Rock Art negliected to inform you that its application included Hansen’s energy drink area—coming close to lying by ommission. Rock Art also neglicted to inform us on the show that the recent trademark law changes could mean that by not fighting it, Hansen could lose their mark for their energy drink. Rock Art neglicted to say on your show that it hired a new and, from what I can tell looking at his website, better IP lawyer to fix the problem that attorney number one caused by applying for a mark for all of class 32.

Your show was used to pass information that not only was one-sided, but bordered on falsehood.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:24 am

Garyius wrote:11. If a trademark holder fails to defense it trademark and dilution occuars, other people can start using thetTrademark. In other words, if Vermonster ends up diluting Hansen’s trademark, someone else can start marketing Better Monster Energy Drink.
12. The controlling factor is a law that was radically changed in 2006, and most resulting trademark cases haven’t hit the feeral court of appeals yet so Hansen doesn’t know what its rights are.


You'd think that after all that time in law school, you'd know how to spell and use correct grammar.

About the content of your post-

You are speaking in such generalities that I don't see any substance in your argument. "If this happens, then this might happen, and if it does, then Hansen doesn't own Monster anymore." Right. And if I sprout wings out of my ass, I could fly around the room.

You basically accuse Rock Art of lying and the BN of spreading the lie. All I have to say about that is that if you don't like the programing on the BN, then you don't have to listen to it. Don't go complaining about it on our forum.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:37 am

You sure taught me a lesson, MadHopper. The strength of your well thought out argument sure trumped the facts.

Let me try this in internet hard guy language.

Hansen spent a lot of money on their trademarks for an energy drinks. Rock Art then used a cheap attorney to file a trademark application, asking for a whole class of marks that included Hansen's product. Rock Art's mark is also real close to Hansen's.

Hansen isn't sure what the law will be five years down the road, so they fought now to safeguard their property. They also fought right away, even before the app was published.

Rock Art then hired a better attorney, and solved the problem by cutting a deal and limiting the trademark application to avoid Hansen's products.

Rock Art then came on air on the show, and claimed falsely that once the feds accept the app, it is golden. RA also forgot to tell us what its first attorney did in his application. This is what we call misleading.

I know RA is a brewery, and that makes you happy, and Hansen is not a brewery, and that makes you sad. However, not giving listeners the facts is not good.

I listen to the program because I learn stuff about beer and I enjoy the fun in the studio. Guests being misleading in an area I know about, does not make me happy. I am sure the issue is that no one in the studio is an attorney, but be that as it may RA pulled what looks like some BS.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:37 am

I thought his post was interesting in pointing out the other side. If Rock Art's initial attorney was incompetent and also filed the name trademark under the energy drink category, I can understand the reaction they had and how leaving it out of the story is significant. I'm glad they worked everything out.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:51 am

I am wondering if the Senators and Congress members from Vermont voted in favor of the significant changes in the trademark law that, in addition to the incorrect initial filing, triggered this entire series of events? What are the significant changes in the law that are making companies quick to pull the legal trigger? Many folks are quick to jump on and dump on "Big Corporate", but often overlook that "Big Government" can also be as oppressive to the little guy.
Last edited by bcmaui on Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:53 am

Garyius wrote:You sure taught me a lesson, MadHopper. The strength of your well thought out argument sure trumped the facts.



Glad I could be of assistance.
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Re: A Show for the Little Guys (no, not Doc) Sunday, Oct. 25th

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:07 am

An interesting resource for this topic:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/trademarks/workflow/start.htm
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