Need input on American wheat ... tonight....

[Speyedr]

if you could pitch the amount of yeast your wort requires, then you can pitch anaerobic yeast in a low O2 wort. How well would that work?

Mr Cheese

That is an interesting thought, but you would still want the yeast to scrub out the O2 that was present even in unaerated (is that a word?) wort. I assume it would do this to any O2 present and then switch back to Anaerobic? Just like it does in bottle conditioning.

I've never worked in a lab. Couldn't even get most science labs in school to work out the way they were supposed to! They should have had a fermentation lab:)

I generally crank up my plate speed to the highest point before the bar gets thrown. I get a LOT of yeast and fermentation is quick and lively. Do you have any idea how much of the yeast would get ruptured? If it is only a portion wouldn't the ruptured yeast just add to the nutrients for the others?

[Mr.Cheese]

[quote="Speyedr"]I generally crank up my plate speed to the highest point before the bar gets thrown. I get a LOT of yeast and fermentation is quick and lively. Do you have any idea how much of the yeast would get ruptured? If it is only a portion wouldn't the ruptured yeast just add to the nutrients for the others?[/quote]

Its probably easier for me to measue the rate of consumption of sugers since i have a scale that goes down to like .1 or .01mg. Interesting side note: Fingerprints have weight! I cant really say, it was just a lab best practice. If i remember right yeast take about ~2.5hrs to replicate.

Mr Cheese

[Kaiser]

[quote="Mr.Cheese] Thats interesting though because if you could pitch the amount of yeast your wort requires, then you can pitch anaerobic yeast in a low O2 wort. How well would that work?
[/quote]

Yes, this should work. But the benefit to, at least limited, growth in the actual wort is, that the yeast adopts to the actual fermentation environment.

Kai

[zymurgest]

Tim asks the following questions:

1) I normally use 1.25 Q/G for my amount; will this be ok for wheat?

I generally do a two step mash whenever I make wheat beers Tim. I usually mash for 45~60 mins at 131'F/55'C then boost to 149'F/65'C for sacchrification (90~120 minutes).

2) What temp should the mash (single infusion) be for a Wheat?

Unless you are doing a decoction mash, I *highly* recommend you consider a protein mash with wheat malt, unless you are using less than 1/3 wheat in your grist formulation. Also, you will need a highly modified, and high enzyme content barley malt in order to do a single infusion temp mash with any quantity of wheat malt greater than 50% imho, ymmv.

3) If I pitched a WL tube into a 2000 ml starter this AM what will be the BEST case amount tomorrow at 4PM (about 30 hrs). It was o2 ed and kept at 72F?

Well, depending on what your starter OG was, for OG's at 1.030~1.050, I usually and customarily find that the amount will double within 24 hours. This would be a minimum amount of yeast that you'd want to use anyway, as I feel that these so called *pitchable* amounts need to be stepped up twice, and then reoxygenated each time, as well as strongly oxygenated when pitched into the cold (60-64'f/16-18'C) bittered wort. Also, I reoxygenate every 4 hours until krausen forms, but never passed 24 hours pitching. I then allow the temp to climb naturally from yeast metabolism to 65'F-70'F/18'C-21'C untill the ferment ends and the beer has reached TG. After that, I will cool to 34'F/1'C and carbonate to 4 atmospheres pressure (40psi@40'F/4'C) and serve in my Weissen glasses at 45'F/7'C and enjoy! Hope that this helps you Tim, as I've been making hefeweissens for a long time now, and based upon empirical evidence over the past 25 years or so, have found these procedures to work well for me and my brewery, and hopefully yours as well. Ttyal, and ilbcnu!

Prost!

Michel

[Kaiser]

2) What temp should the mash (single infusion) be for a Wheat?

Unless you are doing a decoction mash, I *highly* recommend you consider a protein mash with wheat malt, unless you are using less than 1/3 wheat in your grist formulation. Also, you will need a highly modified, and high enzyme content barley malt in order to do a single infusion temp mash with any quantity of wheat malt greater than 50% imho, ymmv.

According to Weyerman, their wheat malt can be used up to 100% in a grist. This means that the use of highly modified and enzymatic stong barley malt is not necessary. I's say that any good 2-row pale or pilsner malt should be just fine.

I certainly believe that a protein rest is necessary when using significant amounts of wheat malt, but I'm not sure that it needs to be held longer than 20-30 min. The Wheyerman wheat malt, which I have been using so far, has a protein content of 10.5-13.5 and a SNR of 37 - 47 (source: Weyerman malt analysis averages for the 2005 harvest). Such an SNR leads me to belive that even the wheat malt is faily well modified and only benefits from the protein rest due to the slightly higher overall protein content.

Also, I reoxygenate every 4 hours until krausen forms, but never passed 24 hours pitching. I then allow the temp to climb naturally from yeast metabolism to 65'F-70'F/18'C-21'C untill the ferment ends and the beer has reached TG.

Do you think that additional oxygenation is necessary after the initial oxygen and pitching? Have you seen a difference in the resulting beer for lower gravity beers ( < 17*P)

I have brewed only one Hefe Weissbier so far, which is no match to your brewing experience , but I'd like to understand the benefits of the processes that othe brewers use.

Kai

[bub]

OK I'll chime in...
This is for a GERMAN HEFE not an american wheat.

1. A single step is fine... a little protien is ok it's supposed to be cloudy.
2. Don't worry about a starter because of the "stress" of the yeast creates a significant portion of the flavours that are desirable.

YMMV FLUFFA ETC
BUB

[zymurgest]

Do you think that additional oxygenation is necessary after the initial oxygen and pitching? Have you seen a difference in the resulting beer for lower gravity beers ( < 17*P)

Indeed, I do. Main reason is that most home brewers, myself included, simply can't pitch enough yeast to be too much. Also, yeast require O2 during the lag phase, which is largely dependent on the type, amount, and temperature of the yeast. I've seen dramatic results with pitching more than adequate amounts of healthy active yeast which have been adequately oxygenated as I stated above, regardless of gravity, but even more so with higher gravity worts. I also like to do a step mash with a 2:1 ratio of wheat to barley malt, usually at 131'F/55'C to make more head producing proteins, and also more malty flavors, then on to 148-149'F or 65'C for the sacchrification step for around 90 minutes.

I have brewed only one Hefe Weissbier so far, which is no match to your brewing experience, but I'd like to understand the benefits of the processes that othe brewers use.

No problem, Kai, I'm more than happy to help you make better beer, espcecially one I really enjoy making and drinking. The main reason I do those procedures I do, is that time and again, I've proven to all that pitching the correct amount of active healthy yeast at the correct temperature leads to a good quick start which attenuates well, and flocs out (relatively) quickly within a week. I pitch my Hefe's around 60'F/16'C and allow the temp to raise naturally to 64-65'F/18'C to no more than 68'F/20'C, to limit fusel's and higher alcohols, while preserving the ester (primarily iso-amylacetate) and 4-vinyl-guiacol (the phenol primarily responsible for the spiciness in Hefeweissens) balance that I enjoy most. I like the Schneider Hefe's most, as they seem to strike the balance well between esters and phenols

[Kaiser]

[quote="zymurgest] I pitch my Hefe's around 60'F/16'C and allow the temp to raise naturally to 64-65'F/18'C to no more than 68'F/20'C, to limit fusel's and higher alcohols, while preserving the ester (primarily iso-amylacetate) and 4-vinyl-guiacol (the phenol primarily responsible for the spiciness in Hefeweissens) balance that I enjoy most. I like the Schneider Hefe's most, as they seem to strike the balance well between esters and phenols[/quote]

But now we seem to get off-topic, as we are talking German style wheat beers . In order to get a well pronouced clove note into my Weissbier I made a ferulic acid rest. Unfortunately I haen't made such a beer w/o the ferulic acid rest yet and can't tell if it actually made a difference but it is very close to Weihenstephan Weissbier, wich is known to have a strong clove note. Do you commonly hold this rest if you want to get more spiciness?

Kai