Gueuze

[Draconian Hand]

I am in the planning stages for starting a gueuze and I need some input.

I have a 50L stainless steel vessel that I plan on storing the gueuze in. My idea is to store/age the gueuze in the vessel and blend in it. 5 gallons of aged gueuze comes out once a year and is replaced with 5 gallons of fresh lambic.

First, does each batch of lambic have to sit in the carboy for 6 months to a year, or can I take it out of the carboy once it has finished fermentation and let it sit in the SS vessel?

Second, do I need to inoculate each batch of lambic (after the first) prior to racking to the SS vessel or can I ferment without the bugs and then rack the fermented beer into the SS vessel which contains bugs?

Third, I am thinking of putting some oak in the SS vessel to provide some wood flavor to the gueuze as if had been in a cask. Should I go with staves, cubes or chips?

Fourth, I assume that the gueuze needs contact with air (a very small amount). This should form a pellicle. Each year when the 5 gallons of gueuze is removed for serving and 5 gallons is added to replace it, the pellicle will be broken. Will the subsequent pellicles dissolve or can I expect some sedimentation in a few years?

[wezil]

How that is a confusing process, kind of a gueuze solara system.
Traditionally gueuze is a blend of 1,2,3 yr old lambic. These lambic are aged completely separate then blended just before they are bottle conditioned.

I will have to assume that you have the 50L stainless vessel full of completely fermented and aged straight lambic to start:

1. I probably would move it as soon as initial fermentation is complete (see #4)

2. No but you might have to keep an eye on the balance of wild yeast and/or bacteria in the vessel. Over time one organism my over grow the others.

3. You should not be able to taste the oak. If you can use staves, they will make a good growth medium for the bacteria and yeast, but try to rinse as much oak flavor as possible first.

4. Yes it does need some oxygen, but very little something like using a wooden (oak) table leg instead of a stopper in the lid should be enough. Each year when you take work out you will probably break the pellicle, but it will probably reform with the addition of fresh beer.

If you have any questions PM me.

Brad

[Draconian Hand]

Yes, a pseudo-solera system is what I had in mind.

Actually, what I had in mind was more like this:

1. Brew 5 gallons of lambic. Ferment and inoculate. Rack into SS vessel.
2. Wait 6 months.
3. Brew 5 gallons of lambic. Ferment. Rack into SS vessel.
4. Wait 6 months.
5. Brew 5 gallons of lambic. Ferment. Rack into SS vessel.
6. Wait 6 months.
7. Brew 5 gallons of lambic. Ferment
8. Remove 5 gallons of lambic for consumption.
9. Rack newly fermented lambic into SS vessel.
10. Repeat steps 7-9 once a year.

Technically what I am looking to create may not be gueuze, merely blended lambic.

Assuming I boil the crap out of the oak and pour off (or decant) the oak "juice", do you think this might help reduce the oakiness? Even if it doesn't, I am sure the oak flavor will fade over the years.

I was thinking of using a culture of B. lambicus and perhaps the dregs of an Orval starter to inoculate the beer.

[wezil]

Yes that should help the oak. I would do it a couple of times.

I think your process should work.

I think you need to include way more bugs in your innoculation. Brett yeast do not have nearly enough souring power to make lambic you will need at lacto and pedio. I would recommend gettting one of the Lambic blends from wyeast or white labs.

Brad

[Draconian Hand]

Does Orval contain Pedio or Lacto? Although I indicated I was planning on using the "dregs" from an Orval bottle, I am planning on growing the dregs up to get a decent pitch.

The Brett culture will be a WL tube.

If Orval doesn't contain lacto or pedio, I will most likely go with one of the lambic blends. I used the WL Belgian Sour for a Flanders Red that is aging right now.

[boobookittyfuk]

Does Orval contain Pedio or Lacto? Although I indicated I was planning on using the "dregs" from an Orval bottle, I am planning on growing the dregs up to get a decent pitch.

The Brett culture will be a WL tube.

If Orval doesn't contain lacto or pedio, I will most likely go with one of the lambic blends. I used the WL Belgian Sour for a Flanders Red that is aging right now.

Buy a bottle of cantillion! use the dregs of that! you won't be sorry. I am pretty sure that orval is brett B.

The only thing about using the stainless fermentation tank is that you almost want some sort of oxidation in a lambic. when brewers use oak barrels that is on of the keys to the oak, is that it lets in a very small amount of oxygen over time. Maybe you could put your 5 gallons of lambic in a plastic bucket for 6 months after primary fermentation and then put it into the SS tank for bulk aging.

let me know if you can't get cantillion

[Draconian Hand]

I haven't quite figured out the method of introducing air into the SS vessel, but I can easily mod it to accept an oak dowel (similar to the methods used with carboys).

As for the Cantillon, I just placed an order for a case of 750mL bottles (Cantillon Gueuze Classic). I figure I will drink one or two and lay the rest down for a number of years.

Can any of the Cantillon beers be used? It appears that a majority of their beers area lambics of some variety, but I have not looked at them all.

[boobookittyfuk]

Can any of the Cantillon beers be used? It appears that a majority of their beers area lambics of some variety, but I have not looked at them all.

I would think so. Since they ferment their beers in open vats on the roof of their brewhouse. I think that all of their beers are getting the same wild yeast. The only difference between the lambics being the recipe and ageing. Somewhere i saw a picture of their empty fermentation vats with cat footprints in them. I also heard that they don't clean them. So maybe you need a cat too....

good luck dude!