lager ferment temps?

[BDawg]

If it was in fact diacetyl, next time I would go a bit warmer & longer on your d-rest.

+1

My first lager was a butter bomb, too. If it needs a D-Rest, long and warm is the way to go.
You will not hurt your lager by going warm late in the primary. It will only help clean things up.

70F and leave it there until you can't smell/taste butter anymore.

[jimlin]

bottles have been at room temp (upper 60s) for 2 weeks to carb up. Figuring I'll move them to the fridge for the lagering period. Might give it a week and try one. Hoping the higher temps, priming sugar, etc have resulted in a lessening of the butter, but who knows.

I was hesitant to raise up the d-rest to 70. Basically did it for a few days at about 62, 10 degrees higher than the fermentation had been until then. Next time I think I need to:

• boil more vigorously. (did a 90 min boil, but i kept it a low boil like I normally do for my ales)
• plan on a longer primary ferment, including a longer d-res at a higher temp.

[ziggy]

The longer boil doesn't really affect diacetyl. It's more for DMS (Dimethyl Sulfide) which has a distinct cooked corn flavor. A lot of small brewpubs have problems with it. DMS is formed from the precursor SMM which there is more of in pilsener malt. SMM converts to DMS above 140F but boils off when you are boiling. So when you boil and cool you want to stay in the 140F-boiling zone for as little time as possible so you want to get from runoff to boiling and boiling to 140 as quickly as possible.

Does that make sense?

[jimlin]

The longer boil doesn't really affect diacetyl. It's more for DMS (Dimethyl Sulfide) which has a distinct cooked corn flavor. A lot of small brewpubs have problems with it. DMS is formed from the precursor SMM which there is more of in pilsener malt. SMM converts to DMS above 140F but boils off when you are boiling. So when you boil and cool you want to stay in the 140F-boiling zone for as little time as possible so you want to get from runoff to boiling and boiling to 140 as quickly as possible.

Does that make sense?

Thanks ziggy... confusing my terminology. The desire to chill quickly is to avoid being in that 140° range where DMS is converted. Separate issue to my "butter" aroma, a sign of diacetyl. So given the butter issue, I need to focus on the ferment (pitching at low enough temp, and a long, warm d-rest after the gravity has lowered significantly.

[jimlin]

After two weeks carbing in bottles in the upper 60s I tossed the bottles into my beer fridge to lager. After one day, I pulled one just to see if the 2 weeks working on the priming sugar since bottling had made any difference, and it certainly has. Big white bubbly head filled my Stella Artois glass. While these obviously can use time lagering, the butter aroma that knocked me over when I racked to the bottling bucket was gone.

While not the same bitterness and hop flavor as a Prima Pils (had a few bottles of that earlier in the week) it's in the ballpark. Hopefully these will continue to improve now at 40° in the fridge.

[ziggy]

Good job man. It's really tricky to clone lagers. The turnaround time is so long and there are so many variables to consider.

[brewinhard]

Sounds like you learned a lot of first-hand knowleadge through experience here. That is THE best way to learn. Now go forth, and make another killer lager my good man!

[jimlin]

had a couple last night and they are already much clearer in appearance after only 5 days in the fridge. Noticing a little something in the aroma that I posted about here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30411