Brewing TV - 10 - Cascadian Dark Ale Debate

[JP]

It would do best in the specialty category, because that's what it is. And I feel Oat stouts are separate because the oats change the beer in the mouthfeel and head retention, as well as flavor to a certain extent. in Black IPA's all you get is a color change.

Dort Export is named from the region it was developed in and was a different beer than the others, I assume. If you expand Pils to include Dorts then you are muddling the Pils cat because those beers are different enough that you can tell without having to look at them. Again, the major diff between IPA's and a Black IPA is the color. Is that really enough to warrant it's own style?

When you say "overt roastiness", are you talking about these Black IPA's? Because my understanding is the roastiness is low to none. And there are plenty of IPA's that have low maltiness to med maltiness that are still IPAs, so I think that argument is out the window, too.

So the main differences between an IPA and a BIPA are the color and a hint of roastiness ... how does that transcend into a new category? I just don't see it.

If everyone started brewing oat stouts with a low SG and with the addition of special B, would that be a different beer or still be an oatmeal stout?

[JP]

The biggest point to be made (not that I really care all that much about what people call it) is that geographic region has little to do with style in an age when we can get whatever ingredients we want for any part of the world. I don't buy the CDA name. It has too much regional pride built in, and clearly there are great examples being brewed in other areas of the country and even the world.

I don't care about the contradiction in the name "Black IPA". Everybody understands what it is and it's not pretentious. And, it is clearly a style. It is more than just an IPA with some Sinnamar dumped in. JP, get out there and try some and you will see that it is a style and some day the BJCP will probably have guidelines for it. Till then, there is the specialty beer category.

My point is that are we at a point where a flash-in-the-pan trend like BIPA is worthy of a style addition? Dort Exprot has been around for 100's of years, as have the other "mother" styles. Just because a beer is being brewed by a % of the homebrewing world, do we need to add a category for it? At what point do we draw the line and recognize those types of beers as fads?

Ive had them before. BBB is one of the best, as is SkullSplitter from Rogue (often considered the Daddy of this mess) - and while they are good beers, they are not a new style for me. Hefe with a lemon in it is not it's own style. Kolsch with that syrup they put in it is still a Kolsch.

[Chupa LaHomebrew]

It could be a "flash in the pan" but I doubt it. I think you are being dismissive about the fact that it's truely it's own thing, but you are entitled to your own (wrong) opinion

I like how the BJCP does their styles. Waiting for a bit to see what sticks around gains in popularity makes sense. But there is also a big enough market trend for the GABF / World beer cup to recognize the style, so that says something, doesn't it? I can get about 8 different ones fresh and on tap in Portland. Not bragging but that is a significant number.

[JP]

It could be a "flash in the pan" but I doubt it. I think you are being dismissive about the fact that it's truely it's own thing, but you are entitled to your own (wrong) opinion

I like how the BJCP does their styles. Waiting for a bit to see what sticks around gains in popularity makes sense. But there is also a big enough market trend for the GABF / World beer cup to recognize the style, so that says something, doesn't it? I can get about 8 different ones fresh and on tap in Portland. Not bragging but that is a significant number.

In two years you won't hear a peep from BIPA fanboys.

[ChrisKennedy]

In two years you won't hear a peep from BIPA fanboys.

Yup, just like those IPA fanboys, those DIPA fanboys, those Imperial Stout fanboys, those barrel aged beer fanboys, those sour beer fanboys...

You don't hear anything out of them. Their beers disappeared just as quickly as they appeared. Thank goodness, I never liked those icky beer fads.

[JP]

In two years you won't hear a peep from BIPA fanboys.

Yup, just like those IPA fanboys, those DIPA fanboys, those Imperial Stout fanboys, those barrel aged beer fanboys, those sour beer fanboys...

You don't hear anything out of them. Their beers disappeared just as quickly as they appeared. Thank goodness, I never liked those icky beer fads.

But those are all established beer styles ... not sure of your point. Sour beers didn't evolve because a handful of homebrewers and pro guys started brewing them for two years.

[ChrisKennedy]

In two years you won't hear a peep from BIPA fanboys.

Yup, just like those IPA fanboys, those DIPA fanboys, those Imperial Stout fanboys, those barrel aged beer fanboys, those sour beer fanboys...

You don't hear anything out of them. Their beers disappeared just as quickly as they appeared. Thank goodness, I never liked those icky beer fads.

But those are all established beer styles ... not sure of your point. Sour beers didn't evolve because a handful of homebrewers and pro guys started brewing them for two years.

The point is that it makes no sense to say that Black IPAs won't exist in 2 years when every other major trend (which Black IPA isn't yet, but looks to quite possibly become) appears to be here to stay.

Sour beers in America evolved because a handful of homebrewers and pro guys started brewing them for two years. That is exactly what happened with the sour beer brewing in America.

[a10t2]

I like how the BJCP does their styles. Waiting for a bit to see what sticks around gains in popularity makes sense.

Agreed. Judging Cat 23 is hard enough without having a large number of similar beers in the flights. If a lot of CDAs (or whatever you want to call them) are still being entered the next time they revise the guidelines, I'm all for adding a subcategory.

So the main differences between an IPA and a BIPA are the color and a hint of roastiness ... how does that transcend into a new category? I just don't see it.

The question has to be whether or not these beers could get judged fairly in any other subcategory. In my opinion, they cannot, so if there are still a substantial number being entered in Cat 23 after a few years, they'll need their own guidelines, both to ensure they get judged fairly against one another, and to ensure they don't compromise the integrity of any other category. Like the guidelines themselves say, 23 is an "incubator".