Help with a CDA recipe

[Duzdisluk Infektid]

I'm trying to put together an extract recipe to mimic Deschuttes Hop In the Dark CDA.
Deschuttes is cool enough to list the ingredients
on their site, so it's just about the process and proportions.
There are a few AG clone threads out there, so I'm pretty comfortable with my proportions.

My questions:

My LHBS doesn't carry Munich extract, which is about 8% of the bill so I'll have to get malt instead. Do I need to do a mash with this, or can it just be steeped?

I plan to follow Deschuttes recommendation on cold steeping the dark grains to focus on getting color without all the tanins that would normally be extracted at normal steeping temps. This is supposed to tame the roastiness.
From what I've gathered about cold steeping, it only yields about 30% efficiency, so I will be multiplying my software recipe amounts x3 for these grains as it only accounts for hot steeping efficiency.

That was a long but necessary lead up to my next set of questions:

Black barley, chocolate , chocolate wheat, crystal 120...I assume these all would qualify for the cold steep, no?

The last two adjuncts, I'm not sure what to do with. They are both flakes oats, but some of it is to be oven toasted. Should I cold steep the toasted and hot for the non? Don't oats need enzymes present in a mash for conversion?
It's such a small part of the bill, I doubt it would matter all that much, but I guess the main thing is why add unfermentable starches when you can just change the process to get conversion? Maybe it's there for some other purpose, I don't know.

Forgive me...I'm not trying to sound like I think I know what I'm talking about, and I'm sure I sound like a total tool. I'm new to this, and I know you guys will point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance.

[spiderwrangler]

1. My LHBS doesn't carry Munich extract, which is about 8% of the bill so I'll have to get malt instead. Do I need to do a mash with this, or can it just be steeped?

2. From what I've gathered about cold steeping, it only yields about 30% efficiency, so I will be multiplying my software recipe amounts x3 for these grains as it only accounts for hot steeping efficiency.

3. Black barley, chocolate , chocolate wheat, crystal 120...I assume these all would qualify for the cold steep, no?

4. Should I cold steep the toasted and hot for the non? Don't oats need enzymes present in a mash for conversion?
It's such a small part of the bill, I doubt it would matter all that much, but I guess the main thing is why add unfermentable starches when you can just change the process to get conversion? Maybe it's there for some other purpose, I don't know.

1. If they carry Briess products, they will be able to order you in a 3.3lb canister, even if they don't normally stock it. NEVER be afraid to ask your LHBS folks if they can get you something they don't normally have. That being said, Munich grains will want a mash, otherwise you are just going to be rinsing starch and a small amount of flavor off the crushed grains.

2. Not sure that's necessary, highly kilned grains are contributing mostly flavor and color, not a whole lot of fermentables... you could always do more and dose it in till it seems right...

3. Cold steep the highly kilned stuff, I'd move the crystal to your minimash, which brings me to

4. YES you will want to mash your oats as well. Steeping them will give you starches etc. that may contribute to mouthfeel you're looking for from oats, but won't really give all they can if you don't convert. I'd do a minimash with Munich, crystal and oats... if the oats are a small enough proportion, the Munich should have enough enzymes to convert, but you could always add in a bit more of a base malt. If you haven't mashed before, a mini is very similar to steeping, you are just paying stricter attention to temperatures and volumes. I believe that Palmer has a basic minimash procedure in HtB, but if you don't follow (or are lazy), someone in here could chime in too.

[Duzdisluk Infektid]

Cool. No I haven't mashed before, but no time like the present.

I'll need to do a BIAB I presume? I can get the bag at my LHBS. Looking for some advice on the following.

1. Can I mash with the cold steeped grain water? Brewers Friend says I need a little over 3 quarts of water for this small amount of grain, and it gives me all the temp calcs for strike water temp.

2. Should I get a cooler to mash in? If so, do you recommend experimenting with my strike water addition first to see how much loss the cold mash tun contributes? My kitchen stove is a glass top and sucks for cooking on. I don't see having any luck trying to maintain mash temp on that with a stockpot. I'll end up scorching it for sure. I extract brew on a 30qt turkey fryer.

Thanks for the teaching points!

[spiderwrangler]

BIAB will likely be easiest for you to do a mini in.

1. I don't see why you couldn't mash with the cold steeped water (though the pH may be low from the kilned malt), but I wouldn't bother, I'd add that as part of your top up water (though sounds like you may be doing full boils on your 30qt?).

2. A cooler isn't necessary, and I'd recommend saving your cooler money until you are ready to go to all grain and get one that will work for that then. I'd get my water to the 150F range, dough in (add your bag of grains) and pop it in a 150F oven for an hour.

[Duzdisluk Infektid]

Never thought to use the oven...that's bloody brilliant.

Yes, I have been doing full boils.

Thanks Spider!

[Duzdisluk Infektid]

Getting ready!!

[Duzdisluk Infektid]

This brew was cursed.

First problem...that giant sideways pic above^...that starter was bad nasty. I couldn't find the liquid yeast I wanted, so I went with an alternate high attenuator, Danstar Nottingham dry. The two packets I got from my closest LHBS, which is more into wine than beer. I'm pretty sure they were old. The yeast could be shaken around inside the unopened package. Not until I bought replacement packages at a better LHBS did I realize that the packages are supposed to be vacuum formed firm. Also, I got some advice that starters for dry yeast is not recommended.

Next problem, I screwed up my grain order and had the LHBS combine the dark grains with the munich and crystal. I had two choices at this point...mini mash it all, or cold steep it all. Since I was already heavy on the dark grain qty, I figured cold steeping was the better avenue. The cold steeped water ended up at 1.038!

The boil went fine, except that I didn't reduce my original DME qty to account for the higher than expected cold steeping conversion and I ended up at 1.080 og. After tasting the wort, I don't think this is going to be drinkable as is. It is waaay roasty and astingent. I'll let it do it's thing and give it some time, but my hopes for it have changed from being a CDA, to becoming something I blend into another beer down the road. Right now, the only thing that is to style is the color.

[spiderwrangler]

I think Danstar used to be loose in the pack, but the switched over to the vacced ones in the last year or so.