Steeping flaked wheat and flaked oats?

[jimlin]

Came across a "how to brew a wheat beer" thread that lists steeping flaked wheat and flaked oat as part of a German Hefe extract recipe.
http://www.homebrewing.org/How-to-Make-Wheat-Beer_ep_36-1.html

"Malt Base: 5 lbs Wheat Dry Malt Extract OR 6 lbs Wheat Liquid Malt Extract
Specialty Grains: ½ lb Flaked Wheat, 1/2 lb Flaked Oats
Hops: 1 oz Hallertau Hop Pellets(bittering)
Yeast: White Labs 300 Hefeweizen, Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan

Steep grains in muslin bag in 2 gallons water heated to 160 degrees for 20 minutes, remove and discard grain bag. Stir in malt extracts, return to heat and bring to a boil. Add hops and boil 60 minutes. Put 3 gallons very cold water into fermenter then pour in hot wort. Cool below 80 degrees, then pitch yeast, attach cover and attach air lock. Ferment until final gravity remains constant 2-3 days apart, then bottle. Fermentation temperatures above 72 degrees will enhance banana flavors, below will enhance clove flavors."

I started researching, and it sounds like most advise against this, as flaked wheat isn't good for steeping. I'm likely just going to use Jamil's hefe recipe from Classic Styles (extract), but was curious as to why one would steep the flaked wheat and/or oats if they need to actually be mashed? Head retention?

[Quin]

I would think that during the steaming and rolling process, the cell walls of the starches would have been ruptured. That would make the sugars available for fermentation without having to be converted (steep OK).

I think the oats and wheat would contribute a silky texture in the mouthfeel more like Hoegaarden.

[Travisty]

Starches do not have cell walls. They are relatively small molecules and they need to be converted by the enzymes in a mash or mini-mash into sugars that the yeast can ferment. Simply steeping flaked wheat and oats will add unconverted starch that will not be fermented and will probably make the beer cloudy. If you add a pound or two of 2-row (or even wheat malt if you'd like) to the steep, the enzymes from the base malt will convert the starches from the wheat and oats. Just be aware that you may need to remove some of the malt extract since the 2-row will add extra gravity to the wort.

[Quin]

Re-reading what I posted earlier, I should have said grains instead of starches.

I'm pretty sure when you boil or steam wheat or oats, you are breaking down the cell walls and releasing the internal sugar reserves (that the plant would normally use to germinate or be consumed during the malting process).

[Travisty]

Ah I see what you meant. But I'm pretty certain that both flaked wheat and oats do not contain sugars yet. They need to be mashed. They are handy to use in a mash because the pre-gelatinization allows for mashing without a cereal mash though.

[jimlin]

from what I've been reading elsewhere, the flaked wheat, when steeped, will give off plenty of unfermentables, adding the the cloudy haze one might want in a hefe, but I'm not sure what else it would offer a benefit

[Quin]

I guess it would depend on how long they are "cooked" during the steaming/flaking process. An iodine test would tell for sure...

[Dirk McLargeHuge]

FWIW, When I used to steep flaked maize, wheat, or rice (don't judge me!), I would have some sort of fermentable malt in there, like Munich or Vienna instead of two-row.