Late DME additions???

[iophon]

Would love to be able to read it. If this research is the accepted standard, why do several standard homebrewing references state there is a correlation?

Accepted standard? Is there one?! The texts you are reading -- take a look at the publication dates. It is easy to make assumptions based on published material and leave it at that, but this stuff is incredibly complex biologically and chemically and new findings challenge older ones frequently. Look at Daniels formula for bitterness and compare to Tinseth and you will find giant discrepancies compared to actual (quantifiable) bitterness. Not to mention that perception is enormously variable!

So instead of assuming Palmer's 1st edition of How to Brew is 100% accurate, maybe try some of this stuff out yourself. Try, for example, boiling hops in water and adding them at the end of the boil. If oyu are willing to risk a little home brew you might find truly useful information...!

[siwelwerd]

Accepted standard? Is there one?!

That's generally how science works--if scientists don't agree, they tend to do more experiments. Given that that study is 20 years old, I would assume it has either been refuted or reinforced and accepted by now.

Look at Daniels formula for bitterness and compare to Tinseth and you will find giant discrepancies compared to actual (quantifiable) bitterness. Not to mention that perception is enormously variable!

So instead of assuming Palmer's 1st edition of How to Brew is 100% accurate, maybe try some of this stuff out yourself. Try, for example, boiling hops in water and adding them at the end of the boil. If oyu are willing to risk a little home brew you might find truly useful information...!

Exactly. There is enough fudge in other parts of the calculation that it really doesn't matter. I certainly couldn't tell you objectively what 40 IBU is; but from experience I know what the 40 IBU that ProMash spits out for me (based on various assumptions/fudging) tastes like, and that's what is required for repeatability.

As to your comment on publication dates, the common books are more recent by 5-10 years than the study referenced.

[spiderwrangler]

That they are affected has been in everything that I've heard/read, Palmer's 1st ed was just what was readily linkable. Should be relatively easy to take the same volume of water and same mass of sugar in a series of treatments and do hop boiling at different sugar amounts, add balance in at end and taste to compare.

[iophon]

I certainly couldn't tell you objectively what 40 IBU is; but from experience I know what the 40 IBU that ProMash spits out for me (based on various assumptions/fudging) tastes like, and that's what is required for repeatability.

As to your comment on publication dates, the common books are more recent by 5-10 years than the study referenced.

This is what I don't get. IBU calculations are not *consistently* out of whack. You can't use one and assume it is just a proportion higher or lower than another, or than the actual IBU measurement. An example from two of my own recipes:

1. Simcoe smash

13 lbs Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)
22.00 gm Simcoe 12.2% (60 min)
22.00 gm Simcoe 12.2% (15 min)
22.00 gm Simcoe 12.2% (10 min)
22.00 gm Simcoe 12.2% (5 min)
22.00 gm Simcoe 12.2% (0 min)

7.75 gallon boil, 1.065 OG, IBU Tinseth = 65, Garetz = 29

2. Winter nut ale

11 lbs Maris Otter
12.0 oz Special Roast
10.0 oz Medium Crystal
10.0 oz Victory Malt
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked
4.0 oz Pale Chocolate Malt
2.0 oz Chocolate Wheat
34.00 gm Magnum 10% (60 min)
14.00 gm US Goldings 4.90 % (15 min)

7.5 gallon boil, 1.062, IBU Tinseth = 38, Garetz = 29

My taste says for the SMaSH Tinseth is close, Garetz is wildly low, and for the Winter ale Tinseth is slightly high, Garetz is spot on. Note the differences between both. One is more than 100% off, one is much less - within a reasonable margin of error perhaps. If you (or I) picked one formula or another consistently for all recipes some would be close, some would be wildly incorrect. There is *no* consistency here!!

The often repeated assumption that if a brewer uses one formula she can get close to a consistent bitterness approximation for *all* recipes is quite farcical. Look again at the above.

So far as recent vs past you originally mentioned Ray Daniels' book - if you were referring to Designing Great Beers it was published 15 years ago, no new editions that I know of. FWIW and YMMV!

Iophon

[siwelwerd]

This is what I don't get. IBU calculations are not *consistently* out of whack. You can't use one and assume it is just a proportion higher or lower than another, or than the actual IBU measurement. An example from two of my own recipes:

Perhaps it is just the beers I brew then. Maybe I also do not compare across very different recipes (or very different hopping schedules--most beers are a bittering charge up front and a token addition in the last 5 or 10 minutes). Also, there are other things contributing to some error either way--actual alpha acid %, for instance.

So far as recent vs past you originally mentioned Ray Daniels' book - if you were referring to Designing Great Beers it was published 15 years ago, no new editions that I know of. FWIW and YMMV!

Study cited in thread you mentioned--1989
Daniels--1996
Fix -- 1999

[Fugglupagus]

I might be a bit off topic at this point, but does anyone have any recommendations regarding minimum temperatures and times for achieving pasteurization of last minute extract additions??

For my last 3 partial boil brews I added a portion of the recipe's extract at flame out. I also grabbed temperatures afterwards. The lowest temp of the three was 186F. It was for a smaller ending boil volume of about 2.75 gallons to which I added ~2lb warm LME + 1lb DME. The highest was 206F/3.2Gal/2.2lb LME. Once the extract is added, it takes a couple of minutes to stir like a mofo, have a drink of beer, take a temperature, sip a beer, put a lid on the kettle, beer, move the hot kettle to an ice bath, beer, etc. Seems like the temps I measured should be high enuf to pasteurize over a couple minute's time, but I have no way of knowing for sure.

Anyone have any thoughts? Will 185+ (F) for a minute or two pasteurize the goodness that will become beer?

[matthendry]

Whether you are using LME or DME (I prefer DME), that stuff has already been boiled down to its present state. I’m of the opinion that any extra boiling will only create off flavors (extra carmelization or that extract “twang” we’re all familiar with) that tend to hide some of the beer’s other qualities. If you think about it…since it’s been boiled, I don’t think you need to worry about getting a great hot break (I could be wrong here), and I doubt you need to worry about DMS. You simply need to worry about sanitizing the wort.

You right there is no hot break because its been done when it was manufactured .

Any break material you do see is cold break coming out of solution from the extract when its dissolved in water and clumping because of the heat .

[spiderwrangler]

If you are using steeping grains you will get a bit of hot break...