any electricians here?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:37 pm

So I am switching out an electric range for a gas range. I've already run the BIP to the new stove but haven't done the electric yet. What I am wondering is if it is "ok" to use the 220v line for 110v. I'll be switching out the 40amp breaker for two single 15amp breakers (one will be for something else). Can't I just use the red wire from the 220v as the neutral for the 110v? Its just electricity, I don't think it really cares what the color of the insulation is...
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boobookittyfuk
 
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Re: any electricians here?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:52 pm

It doesn't care! If you use the red for the "hot" and use the white for the "neutral" it'll be right as rain. Make sure it's grounded proper like and rock it!
timaverage
 
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Re: any electricians here?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:04 pm

im not an electrician but i don't know why not, i'm sure the wire gauge is the same, not?
my name is Richard Edward, just call me Dick Ed.
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Re: any electricians here?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:29 pm

boobookittyfuk wrote:I'll be switching out the 40amp breaker for two single 15amp breakers (one will be for something else). Can't I just use the red wire from the 220v as the neutral for the 110v?


I'm not an electrician, but you should have had a red & black for the 220 legs and a white for a neutral, as well as a ground wire.

What's wrong with just using the black, white, and ground and capping off the red?

I guess I don't understand the problem.
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codewritinfool
 
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Re: any electricians here?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:36 pm

Most likely the wire is 10 guage for your 240 volt, 40 amp service (it may even be bigger #8 wire if it is a long run to the panel). A 120 v 20 amp is typically done with smaller 12 gauge wire, so that is safe provided there is not a long run between your outlet and panel. If you home is average sized (3,000 sf or less) I would not worry about voltage drop from the panel.

Standard practice is to use the white wire shared on both circuits as neutral. There may or may not be a ground wire which is green - if you have 4 slots and wires to the old 240v range outlet, one is a ground, if only 3 then there is no ground. If you have no green wire, you can not use a GFI on a 120v kitchen appliance circuit, which is now standard practice. Not necessarly a problem with the new range, but maybe if you are planning on using the new extra circuit for countertop appliances. It all depends on what code was at the time the original range plug was installed. The older part of my house was built in 1961 and had no ground anywhere, including the water heater and range circuits.

The red wire from your old breaker will power one leg of the new 120 circuit if you connect that wire to one of the new breakers (120v 20 amp). The black wire from your old breaker will power the other new circuit if you connect that to the other new breaker 120v 20 amp.

The white and green wires that are inside your electrical panel do not have to be moved. You will have to run both the white and green to both new outlets. I prefer to splice two wires at the box and run them to each new outlet, others just use the two screws on one outlet to jumper to the other. I do not like to do this because the little copper tab between the screws is designed only to handle the load of one 20 amp circuit, not both and could go bad. You may need a bigger box on the wall to contain the additional wires and splices.

I do not know if there is a safety issue now that two circuits are sharing a common neutral back to the panel - normally each 20 amp circuit would have it's own 12 guage return, but this neutral might be 10 (or 8 ) guage already.

You could also use two new 120v 15 amp breakers instead of 20 amp for safety sake if that is enough for the load demand as that is typically run on even smaller 14 gauge wire for standard length runs.

I am not a licensed electrician.
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Re: any electricians here?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:24 pm

The 220v line was most likely installed when the house was built in the 60s. I'll check again. I'm not currently at that house. I don't think that there is a white wire in the line....just black, red and a steel looking ground. If it really comes down to it, I could just run a 14 guage wire from range to breaker box, I just want to know if I could reuse that old 220 line.
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boobookittyfuk
 
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Re: any electricians here?

Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:47 pm

Most likely there are two hots and a neutral, but no ground. But I could be wrong. A ground buss/bar and a neutral bar inside a power panel look basically the same. If your panel has two, you have ground, if just one, it is only neutral. Neutral goes to the silver screw on your outlet, ground (if it is there) goes to the green screw. The black or red wire will go to your gold screw terminal on the two new outlets. The utility company only brings three wires to your home and grounding was added in my area after the early 1960's.

A neutral is typically energized when the circuit is used, a ground is an alternate pathway for electricity to flow in case there is a short, and is not typically energized when a circuit is used.

The type of outlet on your wall will tell you what flavor of 220v you have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEMA_connector

It is safe to use one wire for the 120 range, but not as safe as it can be without a ground wire for the secondary circuit if it is for the counter top. But the existing counter top might not be grounded anyway, so it would be no more dangerous than what you currently have. You can use both existing wires for the new hots and just run a new ground wire to protect the counter top circuit if the rest of your home is ungrounded as well (i.e. all the regular outlets in the home only have two slots instead of three). I did that initially in my bathroom and kitchen when I first purchased the house. Ground can be as simple as a bond to the copper water pipe coming into your home if it remains copper for at least 8' underground. I'm guessing you have a basement in snow country that goes deeper than the frost line.

If it is plastic or galvanized water pipe, they now prefer you install a copper rod into earth - the rods are 10' long and they want 8' underground. If you have soil, just drive in, if you have rock less than 8' under your home, it should be laid on it's side covered at least 2' under soil.

It is standard now to have GFI's in kitchens and bathrooms since they are close to sinks and tubs (i.e. water) and can create a hazard. Dropping an electric hairdryer in a tub full of water, or an appliance in a sink is an example.

Even if you have three prong regular outlets in your home, you may want to pop one off and look at it. If they only have two wires connected to the outlet and no bare or green wire off the bottom corner, someone may have swapped out all of the outlets to make it appear you have a grounded outlets when you really don't.
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Re: any electricians here?

Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:04 am

I'm starting to get freeked out about the unknown here. All I knowis that you may only get one chance with mains power so don't fuck about. If in doubt, call a trades person to do the work for you. I'm not trying to be a "stick in the arse dickhhead" but more of a concerned BN douche bag.

Spend the extra and hire a pro, even if it is just for my peace of mind.

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