Brew Software

[Herms]

Hopefully I won't get too much grief for this post.

But Beersmith is a huge disappointment.

I've been batch sparging ever since I started all grain. Since none of the software handled batch sparge, I had a spreadsheet based on John Palmers calcs to figure out all of the mash stuff. Then I would use promash to figure out the hops. using an extract brew equal to the OG of my batch sparege.

I read somewhere that Beersmith did batch sparge, so I downloaded that evaluation, but didn't have time to evaluate it, so I just purchased it. I started putting in an Amarillo IPA recipe, and while working thru the recipe I realized that the OG is based completely on the brewhouse efficiency. I can't find anywhere to set the grain absorbtion rate.

Maybe I'm missing something, but from my experience with batch sparge, you have a conversion efficiency, then you have a batch sparge efficiency, which is sort of dependent on how much wort the grain absorbs. You first drain the mash tun, but can only get a percentage of the points, since the grain is holding back a percentage of the liquid, then you add more water and get another percentage of the remaining points.

The efficiency is based on how much liquid the grain absorbs and the sizes of your batch sparge.

When I adjust the batch sparge options the OG doesn't change, only brewhouse efficiency effects the OG. Seems like a lame attempt at implementing batch sparge. What a waste, I should have donated the $20 to the BN.

I guess it's back to spreadsheets and promash. I should not have assumed that the people implementing batch sparging understood it.

If I completely f'd up and this software does do batch sparge, please let me know how, I've had a few oak aged barleywines, maybe I'm missing something.

Thanks,

Mark

[Bugeater]

I'll be damned if I can figure out what you are trying to figure out with your software and spreadsheets. I've been batch sparging for 5 or 6 years now and have found no need for any special computations for batch sparging.

I use Promash to figure my recipes. I set my absorption at 0.12 gal/lb. Promash tells me how much water to add for my desired mash thickness. I substract that volume from 3.5 gallons (half of my 7 gallon preboil volume) so I know how much additional water I need to add before I drain the mash tun for the first time. I check the exact volume of that first runoff and add enough sparge water to the mash tun to total 7 gallons. This will be very close to 3.5 gallons of sparge water. Once I collect that, I check the gravity and use promash to compute the mash efficiency.

I have found no need to figure out anything other than the above. My efficiency normally runs around 80% for normal gravity beers and around 70% for high gravity brews. I don't know what use I would have for computing gravity points from each sparge as it all gets mixed together for the boil anyway. To me it sounds like you are making things more complicated than you need to.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

[Sent From My iPhone]

I use Beer Smith and I batch sparge. I use the "Water Needed" tool and so far it's been pretty close and with batch sparging you only have to be pretty close.

[snafui]

I have found no need to figure out anything other than the above. My efficiency normally runs around 80% for normal gravity beers and around 70% for high gravity brews.

Bug, It's really handy to see you lay it out in such simple terms. Thanks! I don't get anywhere near that efficiency though. How fine are you milling the grain and do you have problems with stuck sparges?

Edit:
Oh yeah and to be on topic I'm trying out BeerSmith now and I too find it annoying that it doesn't seem to help me with all my water calculations like ProMash does (but if its unneeded as bug says.. hmm)

[uberbiermensch]

What I think Herms was saying is that you can calculate your expected total efficiency depending on a few variables with batch sparging. It need not be a mystery.

There is the Mash efficiency, the % of the points you get from the grist from the amount possible. It has more to do with how well crushed your grains are I believe. And should generally be considered a constant value unless you crush your grains using different settings.

Then there is your Sparge efficiency, which can be calculated accurately based on how much water you use and how you use it. When people say they get an X efficiency on lower gravity beers, but a Y efficiency on higher gravity beers it's because of this sparge efficiency. Simply put, you calculate the total points in the mash, and the amount left after your sparges. Figure the % you extract, and there is your sparge efficiency. This is effected by grain absorption rate, and water-to grain ratio per sparge.

Multiply the Sparge efficiency by your Mash efficiency, and you'll get Total Efficiency.

What Promash and I guess Beersmith use is Total Efficiency as a variable that you change per recipe, when what it really should use is your Mash efficiency and depending on your water/grain ratio is, you'll get a higher or lower OG.

And in wrapping up a long post... if you have records for what efficiency you got with a similar grain bill, then yes, you don't really need to do these calculations and you always do a 90 minute boil for a 5 gallon batch, you're fine, but when you're doing something completely new like say no sparge mashing, extended boiling, etc, these calculations give you an accurate prediction of what your OG will be.

[Mylo]

Ok. I'll make a feable attempt here. I don't batch sparge - nor have I tried to work with the batch sparging variables in BeerSmith, however...

The anticipated OG is just a SWAG. Yes, it is based on brewhouse efficiency. It is not going to be very accurate with your first few batches. I would aim low at first - say, 60% - because you can always add a little DME until you know YOUR NUMBER. You need to dial in your process so that it is repeatable. Whether or not you do one or two batches does not matter. What does matter is that you do the same thing each time. You can then determine what your efficiency is given your repeatable method. The more consistent you are - the faster you will arrive at your "overall" extraction efficiency.

As all grain brewers, we often have to "adjust" mid-process if we want a repeatable brew. That might mean diluting/adding additional extract or boiling the wort down to your anticipated pre-boil gravity. Attention to your process and practice will hopefully remove some variables. It is these "on the fly" adjustments that make this hobby interesting and fun, for me. If it was so simple - then Jamil would have a lot more competition!

Don't give up on BeerSmith just yet. I think it is a great tool that is equal to (or in some aspects) better than the others out there.


Mylo

[Herms]

I been doing all grain for about 5 years and usually I come within a few points, give or take a few points. My conversion efficiency is around 75-80 %.

Let me explain what I mean by batch sparge calculation, which I thought this program did.

Say your doing a 10 gallon batch, with 30 lbs of grain, and you want to have 11.5 gallons to boil.

Say your 30 lbs of grain has 1000 point available to extract, 30lbs * 35 points/lb is roughly 1000 points.

Assume a 75% conversion efficiency.

so 1000 points times 75 % is 750 points available after mashing.

Just say that my 30lbs of grain will absorb 4 gallons of water.

If my initial infusion was 10 gallons, when I drain tha mashtun I will extract 6/(6+4) * 750 points = 450 points in 6 gallons

That leaves 300 points left, if I then add 5.5 gallons, recirculate then drain, I will extract 5.5/(5.5+4) * 300 points = 174 in 5.5 gallons

So, I've extracted 624 points in 11.5 gallons of wort out of a possible 750 points.

624/750 = 83% I call this a batch sparge efficiency

This is the calculation I thought beersmith did, I think you could take 83% * 75* and stick that in your brew house efficiency. But the 83% is not a constant it is affected by the size of you first and second sparges, your water to grain ratio, the grain absorption rate.

I've been batchsparging for years and these calcs, which I initially got of the web but I think are in John Palmers latest How to Brew book, work.

I guess I'm just a little annoyed that Beersmiths' idea of doing batch sparge is just figuring out some sparge sizes and putting them on a brew schedule.

[Mylo]

I'd shoot him an email, or post on his support forum. He is always quite responsive - and maybe he'll tighten it up for you on the next update.


Mylo