The REAL mash pH?

Fri May 20, 2011 7:50 am

I'm sure this is on here somewhere, but searching has not found me the answer...

My problem has arisen from reading Gordon Strong's excellent new book. On page 34 he states "Mash ph...target of about 5.3. Note that mash pH is measured at mash temperatures, not cooled. If you cool the mash the pH will read about 0.35 higher..." (My italics)

This didn't quite jive with my memory (I'm just getting into mash pH control), so I searched here and found the following quotes from AJ

"The "ideal" pH for mash, at room temperature, is around 5.4.
pH readings are always taken at lab (room) temperature. All reported values are given at room temperature. Were you to measure at mash temperature and compare to a pH value you saw posted here or in a magazine article or modern textbook you would be comparing apples to oranges."

So, these two luminaries seem to be differing on this topic. Can anyone help me square the circle??
Corporal Mickp
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Re: The REAL mash pH?

Fri May 20, 2011 8:44 am

I can't say for 100% certain, but if memory serves, Gordon Strong's guidance seems backwards. You want 5.3 at room temperature, but if measured at mash temperature it will be a bit higher. Can anyone verify?
Dave

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dmtaylor
 
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Re: The REAL mash pH?

Fri May 20, 2011 10:54 am

Obiously I can't answer your question as the question is as to whether my viewpoint or Gordon's is the "correct" one. But I can give you my reasons for saying it is room temperature.

1. As it is obviously somewhat arbitrary as to which temperature is chosen such matters are often left to a standards body. In brewing in the US that body is the ASBC. The ASBC's method for measuring wort pH (for example) says to collect the stuff, cool it to 5 -8 °C and then measure it's pH using the method of MOA Beer 9. MOA Beer 9 says to attemperate to room temperature. Thus I conclude that ASBC expects pH's to be measured and reported at room temperature. This also tells me that if you publish an article in the JASBC (the ASBC Journal) your pH values should be at lab temperature unless you state otherwise (and their are reasons to do this if talking about enzyme performance, for example). This is the strongest "legal" argument for room temp.

2. Room (laboratory) temperature has a historical basis. pH meters did not fit into shirt pockets in the days when people started measuring pH in breweries. Thus the sample was removed to the lab during which time it cooled. If the sample was wort it was treated as in 1.

3. If one is going to measure pH at temperature other than at room temperature that temperature needs to be stated. As pH shifts with temperature we need know what temperature. Is "mash temperature" a protein rest at 122 or 128 °F or a saccharification rest at 146 or 156°F?

4. This is probably the most important to home brewers: The thin glass in the traditional electrode or the fine wires in an ISFET are stressed by sudden temperature changes. Making all measurements (buffers and samples) at nearly the same temperature prolongs electrode life.

5. ATC is a wonderful thing provided the isoelectric pH of your electrode is between 6.5 and 7.5 and it should be. But if it isn't (I own an otherwise fine electrode with pHi = 8.4) then ATC will introduce appreciable error if the meter was calibrated with buffers at room temperature and then used to measure at "mash" temperature.

6. Jean DeClerck wrote: "When pH is mentioned in connection with mashing, it always refers to the cooled wort."

Given the above I think it is incumbent on anyone who makes a measurement at other than room temperature that he publish that temperature. This is not always done and we will always be subject to some confusion on this score until everyone gets on the lab temp (or process temp) bandwagon and the ASBC changes its MOA.

This is not to say that we wouldn't prefer to know what the pH is at the actual operation temperature. Reporting it that way is just not as practical as a lab temperature specification. Somewhat like the weather bureau reporting the Denver barometer referred to sea level.

dmtaylor wrote: You want 5.3 at room temperature, but if measured at mash temperature it will be a bit higher. Can anyone verify?


Actually its the other way around. It is lower at "mash" temperature and the number usually tossed out is 0.3 but they don't say what ''mash" temperature is. In my experience the shift is about 0.0055 pH/°C. Thus if room temp is 21 °C (that's what the thermostats in overseas hotel rooms seem to be set for) then a 0.3 ° shift would take us to 75.5 °C (167.9 °F) which is more like mash out than mash temperature. If mash temperature is 150 (65.5 °C) the temperature difference from room temperature would be (assuming your results are like mine and it varies with grist, water, flood stage of the Nile...) the shift would be more like 0.24 and the sample you meadured at 5.3 (too low - should be 5.4 or so - but not terribly low) at room temperature would be at about 5.06.
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Re: The REAL mash pH?

Sat May 21, 2011 1:36 am

I agree with everything AG says here - but the trouble is that while he is absolutley correct with regard to lab procedures and what a pro-brewer would do and or report.... I get the very strong impression over the period of time i have been one, that homebrewers generally dont do ipt that way.

Homebrewers, when they decide to forego the bathtubs, pounds of sugar and Mr Beer kits - and discover that mash pH is important, tend to buy themselves a packet of pH strips and dunk one in the mash. Now ignoring the fact that pH stips are a bit loose and fast on the accuracy front in the first place - that means that homebrewers are measuring pH at mash temperature..... And so of course, homebrewing authors tell you what you pH should be at mash temperature.

If you read Palmer, Strong, Papazian etc etc, your most likely to get the "homebrew" answer - But if you are reading Kunze, or Briggs or the JIB or other Pro or "science" type authors, then its going to be be the other way around.

The other problem is that homebrewers dont like "ranges" they like a nice solid "this is the figure it should be, period". So you get the much tossed about figure of 5.2 as the ideal mash pH, or Gordon says 5.3 etc etc. When the answer is really that anything From 5.2-5.4 is good and a point or so either side of that range is still not bad. And the same applies if you measure at room temperature - its just shifted along the scale a little bit thats all. You would be looking for a pH in the range of 5.4-5.6

So - its not that hard, its just not the One True Answer that homebrewers seem to crave - it is the unfortunately ubiquitous "It depends"

Summary

Measuring pH at mash temperature (lets say 65°C)

Target: 5.2-5.4 Acceptable +/- 0.1

Measuring pH at room temperature (lets say 21°C)

Target: 5.4 - 5.6 Acceptable +/- 0.1


So sayeth Thirsty and that is the One True Answer (although it depends.....)
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Thirsty Boy
 
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Re: The REAL mash pH?

Sat May 21, 2011 5:39 am

I question if the mash pH taken with the strip dunked in the hot mash is reporting the pH at the mash temp or room temp since the temperature of the strip very quickly falls to room temp when its removed from the mash.

A good experiment would be to dip strips in samples of the hot wort and cooled wort and see if there is a difference in the readings. I can't do this experiment myself since I still consider strips to iffy for use in anything that matters. But if a consistent correction factor can be assessed, maybe I'm being too hard on the strips.
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Re: The REAL mash pH?

Sat May 21, 2011 7:14 am

I have often wondered if part of the problem with the strips is that the dyes used in them are unstable at mash/kettle temperatures.
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Re: The REAL mash pH?

Sat May 21, 2011 1:37 pm

Aj, Thirsty, thanks! I'll be brewing tomorrow and can now shoot for my pH with confidence.
Corporal Mickp
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Re: The REAL mash pH?

Sat May 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Kai's experiments showing colorphast strips measuring about 0.3 low were done with room temperature samples.

IME, they give the same measurement in a cooled sample and a hot sample from the same mash.
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