American Wild Ale - where to start??

[Kazi the Younger]

I love Jamil's show for all the great info he has on recipes for styles. Now I'd like to brew a Sour Ale and I know
what I like to Taste. I thought I'd start with a Flander's Red recipe but I realize this is not what I'm looking to do.
I don't want to brew a beer like Rodenbach Grand Cru or Dutchess de Burgogne

Basically I want to make a beer in the spirit of Russian River's Sours--ideally a beer that tastes like "Supplication"

What I like about American Wilds over the Belgian traditional is the lightness and freshness of the taste, despite all the horse-blanket, barnyard flavors and aromas being there. There is still good malt backbone, but the balance is to the tart and sour, rather then malt. Many Cantillion Lambics are too extremely tart, although I did have
one Cantillon that I thought was amazing--one aged in Oak with Cherries Added. Then I thought about it some more and that is actually what Russian River Supplication is.

So where could I start for a recipe? I browzed the ol' World Wide Web for clone beers and there aren't any, it appears.

Where is a brewer like myself to start when there are no clones available on the Information Superhighway?

[ziggy]

You could do a sour mash, add some acidulated malt to your grist, or add some lactic acid to the beer. That would make it more tangy and not really mouth puckering sour. You could also get a recipe for a sour beer and add some malty sweetness to it by increasing your mash temperature.

[Kazi the Younger]

Yeah i'm looking to have something drier and more drinkable. Could I start with a Flander's red recipe and
replace some of the caramel grains with acidulated malt?

[Quin]

Not to be a smart ass, but have you looked at Russian River web site? I think they have your starting point there...

Supplication: Brown Ale aged in French oak Pinot Noir barrels with three strains of Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus, Pediococcus and sour cherries .
7.0%ABV / 1.064 O.G

[Chupa LaHomebrew]

If you are interested in learning more about brewing sour beers, you should definitely get on the Babblbelt.com homebrew forum. Absolutely the best group of people to talk to about homebrewed sour ales (No offense meant to anyone else! If you like sour beers, check it out).

The other thing I would say is that I don't think you would brew Rodenbach Grand Crue or Duchesse with the Roselaire strain. It would be tough to get a beer as acetic as Grand Crue without long aging in a barrel, or somehow getting a lot of oxygen in the fermenter. Duchesse has sugar added back at bottling, which is why it is so sweet, and apparently why I really don't like it.

Also if you haven't yet, pick up "Wild Brews" and read up on how sour ales are brewed. Once you know the basics, you can feel pretty free to experiment with different bugs and flavors. the most important part is to have a relatively cool place to ferment them year round, and extra equipment to keep your other beers from going sour.

[boobookittyfuk]

I agree with Chupa, there is a lot of help that you can get at the Babble belt.

last summer I made a flanders red, american style....without saccharomyces!

I think that i took Jamil's recipe and the info from one of the session's where they talked about making sour beers, and came up with a grain bill. One of the guys above said to do a sour mash and add acid malt...I wouldn't. Do either one of the steps. Essentially acid malt is to avoid doing the sour mash. (hint hint, just add the sour malt.

do you have any RR barrel aged beers around?

when I made my flanders, I pitched a starter that I made with Brettanomyces Brux. If you make a starter with brett, you are going to want to make it at least a week before you brew! Because when you buy brett yeast, they don't give you enough to ferment an entire batch. Right after I pitched my brett starter I added the dregs of beatification batch 2. I also have added 2 oz of vinnie's "dime bag" of bugs...in addition to 2 oz of french oak cubes that I soaked in pinot noir for a year before adding them.

after the first month or so, i don't think that you want any or much oxygen infiltrating your beer. Vinegar, or rather acetic acid, is made when acetobacter consumes alcohol in the presence of oxygen. If you want a sharp acidic bite, you want lactic acid which is made by lactobaccilus and pediococcus in the absence of oxygen.

Personally, I don't care for rodenbach or Duchesse(sp) becasue they are either too sweet and/or too acetic. I prefer Panil (which is actually Italian sour red) or la folie.

I just sent in to the rat pad a belgian blond that was fermented with 100% brett lambicus. B. lambicus is more "sour" than the other brett strains leaving a tart cherry and lemony aroma/flavor. I sent in the recipe with it, so if they actually drink it on the show, and like it, then I'm sure that they'll read off the recipe.

[Kazi the Younger]

Thanks a lot guys--that site looks awesome! I'll def pic up a copy of "wild brews" as well.

I'm def looking for a taste like Panil/RR/Cantillon Blended Lambics. That's a range I know..basically
a moderately strong Tart taste with some Acetic acid, and I guess a bit of a sour "bite"

From what you're telling me I would need to ferment for about a month in a plastic bucket to get a bit of acetic to develope in the presence of minimal oxygen, then transfer to a closed glass carboy and pitch bugs (lactobaccilus and pediococcus) and add oak chips, so that the acidic "bite" can develope in the presence of no oxygen. Is that what happens in a barrel? It's basically beer conditioning "for 9 months" as RR says in oak barrels where no oxygen can enter, gradually soaking up the flavor of wood (like wine) and you could add cherries or berries or whatever at that point.

Does that make any sense?

[Kazzell]

This thread was a perfect find for me! In a few ways. I'm setting out on the same venture very soon and was looking for a road map. I didn't honestly know.what I didn't know! so aside from picking up a copy of "wild brews" and checkong out that sour forum I think I need a list of unforgetable sours people have tried.
Also I'm curious if you can parti-gyle a sour from another batch? I'm trying to really get a big bang for my buck! I'm not cheap when it comes to brewing and honestly I think that's a problem...well my wife does.