My first Saison

[Goo Brew]

I am in the process of trying to formulate a Saison recipe and had a couple of questions that I hope someone can answer. I have been doing some internet reading on the style and have read mixed temp for fermentaion of anywhere from the high 70's to the low 90's. I will be using is White Labs WLP565 yeast. Does anyone know what I can expect at the different temps? Also, I read on the White Labs web site that another yeast strain should be used when the fermentation is about 75% complete to help dry it out. What yeast should be used for this, and with my recipe below will I need to do it? Also any tips on the recipe would help tremendously.

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
72.7 8.00 lbs. Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2
9.1 1.00 lbs. CaraVienne Malt Belgium 1.034 22
9.1 1.00 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033 2
9.1 1.00 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt 1.033 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Plug 3.10 9.0 60 min.
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Plug 3.10 8.1 45 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 Oz Sweet Orange Peel Spice 10 Min.(boil)
0.50 Oz Corriander Seed Spice 15 Min.(boil)
0.50 Tsp Cardamom Seed - kettle Spice 10 Min.(boil)

[bub]

not sure about the rest but I would move your spices to 2 minutes instead of 10 min, my experience shows that 10 mins boils off too much of the good stuff.
BUB

[Bugeater]

I have made a couple of saisons now and have a few comments. First, take it easy on the spices until you have a good handle on how much to add for your taste. The 5 minute boil is a good start. I would cut the spices in half for the first try at this recipe. An underspiced saison is much easier to drink than an overspiced one. Mine uses just a little bitter orange (not sweet) and some grains of paradise.

On use of the WLP565, it is a great yeast. While it works best with an 85° fermentation temp, how you get there is important. Pitch at a relatively cold wort temp (around 65-70°) and let is slowly rise in temperature. If left uncontrolled, the temp will rise too quickly, forming fusel alcohols. Your target should be to take about 4 days to gradually get the temp up to the 85° target.

You don't need to add a second yeast. Even at these high temps this yeast works slowly. Plan on 3-4 weeks in primary and 2-3 weeks more in secondary for it to finish out. A second yeast would speed things up, but the flavor profile will be a little different.

Once last thought, this yeast hates sudden temperature changes. That's part of the reason for the gradual change. Make sure your starter (use a big one) is at the same temp as the wort when you pitch. Sudden changes may make the yeast stall out.

Hope this helps

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

[Dr Scott]

I've talked to Chris white about this a few times. The Saison yeast can be sluggish near the end of fermentation. He suggestes pitching a second neutral yeast (Like wlp001) get this to finish drier. I did this on a Saison last year with pretty good results.

I've since talked to several brewer's (after tasting their very nice Saisons) Several of them used (very)High temps during the later half of primary fermentation. most upward of 90F. The final brew was very nice, dry but still very belgian. The trick is to ferment at a normal temp for the first part (to keep ester formation low) and then to raise the temp and hold it there for an extended period. remember, this yeast can be very slow and sluggish near the end.

I haven't tried this technique yet, but plan to do this on my next Saison.

[Chris Vejnovich]

I have never used the upward increasing fermentation temp process, but I am anxious to try this technique after reading the "Brew Like A Monk" book. Thanks to Bugeater for loaning me the book. BTW Bugeater, I recently bought my own copy so I could make notes in the book.

Anyway on the three Saisons I have brewed I have used fermentation temps of 85F or higher. I also started the brews at 85F, and one of my beers made it to about 95F. The beer that made it to 95F is actually much more clean than the beer that stayed more in the 85-88F range. It was actually very hard to keep my first Saison warm enough due to the fact that it was fermented in my basement in the dead of winter. My second Saison was fermented in my Garage in the middle of June and that one got to 95F.

On a side note and just my opinion, but I don't really like spices in beer. I think with proper fermentation techniques one can make a very nice Saison or any other Belgian inspired brew with out the use of spices.

[ubriaco]

I made 10 gal of saison using yeast cultured from Saison Dupont, which is where 565 comes from. It was also fermented at 65F, to my amazement it worked and worked well. the actual SD yeast is from what I understand two domesticated S.c. varieties and one wild Saccharomyces, and after watching it ferment I have to say that its true.

Just throwing that out there for you to chew on.

On spices - half of that was spiced with 1/2 tsp coriander, 1/4 tsp black pepper, 1/4 tsp cumin. I can detect all 3 at that concentration, and they were added to conditioning tankl, so listen to Bugeater it is good advice. Nonetheless this is the fastest I have ever chewed through 10gal in my life.

My liver loves me

[Goo Brew]

Thanks for all the help guys. I used the 565 to get a 1 liter starter going yesturday (on my Eric Beer stir plate! Thanks Eric). I have also cut the quantity and the time down on the spices.

[Chris_J]

This is a great thread for me because I plan on brewing my first saison this summer. I live in an apartment though and don't really feel like cranking the heat in August to get high enough fermentation temps. If I placed the carboy on a heating pad, do you guys think this would be ok? Or maybe attach it to the side of the carboy or something? Thanks for the the help!