Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:35 am

Good morning all,
I need some guidance. I will be brewing a oatmeal stout tomorrow. 11G of SRM 34.
When I plug in the London water profile into Palmer's excel sheet I get a SRM as high as 17 (not 34). Also the C : S ratio is not what I expected "bitter". The Dublin water is similar in results, as far as SMM and ''bitterness" ratio.

So is London the water i should be shooting for? If not, what?

My water
Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Alkalinity as CaCO3 Sodium (ppm) Chloride (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Water pH
(ppm) 14 4 40 8 8 1 6.1


Thanks again
Tim
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TimCA
 
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Re: Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:07 am

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Whitebeard_Brewer
 
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Re: Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:14 am

I personally prefer to go not for a local water profile, but to design it around the target mash pH for the color, and then decide about the chloride to sulphate ratio. But the London profile will probably do you just fine. If you want to make it more malty you can just trade out a little gypsum for calcium chloride until you hit the right balance.

One thing about the sheet that is not in the directions but should be: On the first line of the spreadsheet where you plug in the beer color, if you get over a suggested RA of 300, the numbers go into the red. You don't need to go over 300 RA to balance you mash pH and probably not even that high. AJ can probably give you a much more detailed and scientific response than I can, but getting that high of an RA is probably going to give you a chalky or salty tasting beer.
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Chupa LaHomebrew
 
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Re: Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:29 am

I will be out at 11:30 so I don't know if I can call in... well have to see
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TimCA
 
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Re: Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:36 am

Chupa and others,

Thanks for the input. Ya the RA for a 32 SRM beer was 268 to 327!. I was going to target 250 for the RA and then adjust My CA to 50 and the C : S ratio to balanced or malty for this stout. What do you think. I just got my "house pail ale water " set and am now trying to attack the darker beer water. Any input is helpful.

Thanks
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TimCA
 
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Re: Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:08 am

There is a problem in the spreadsheet. The formula used is RA = SRM*12.2 - 122.4 for the lower limit and RA = (SRM-5.2)*12.2 for the upper limit. This implies that color data was plotted against SRM and a linear fit performed. This is a very interesting thing to investigate but there are lots of problems. If you want to plot Guiness, for example, should you look at Guiness Draft which measures 47 SRM or Guiness Extra which measures 67? And what should you use for the RA? Are they both brewed with the same water? Assuming they are which of several analyses for Dublin water available for Dublin should be used considering that 1) most water reports are seriously in error and 2) Guiness isn't brewed at St. James Gate any more. Taking the approach of using both beers and all three available water reports and doing similar things for a handful of other beers I get a scatter plot which isn't terribly confidence inspiring in terms of doing a tight fit to it. Indeed, the best linear fit has Pearson's R (remember that Gosset, known as Student, worked at Guiness and studied under Pearson) is less than half (0.46) which means a very poor fit. Nevertheless, the slope is more like 1 than 12 so that RA = 5 + SRM better represents the data I looked at that either of the formulas above. For 32 SRM this new formula would give an RA of 37 with the 95% probability band spanning 11 to 67 ppm as CaCO3. An RA in this range is certainly more reasonable than 268 - 327.

So my recommentation for this stout would be to brew it with your lovely (assuming they got all the mercury out) water and check the mash pH. If it comes in too low (unlikely) then add some chalk to the mash. If it comes out too high (more likely but not very if you have 10% or more roast malt in the grist) add some acid to the mash.

I really do hope the Palmer spreadsheet gets fixed as it is used by almost everybody many of whom are led astray over this issue.
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Re: Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:53 am

Thanks for the reply, very interesting. I have had little success with checking the PH, Using PH papers, I cant really tell the difference between say a 5.0 and a 6.0 ph because the color of the paper does not even look like any of the oranges on the chart... :roll:
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TimCA
 
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Re: Palmer excell water sheet question, Stout.

Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:03 pm

I'm color blind so I never even tried to use them but from what I see here they are of insufficient precision (0.3 units per patch) and apparently biased low. Fortunately there are fairly good, reasonably priced pH meters available now.
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