Chillus Convolutus vs. Monster IC

[fastdogbrewing]

OK, I know this has been beat to death but I have been looking for some answers on this subject, especially from a cost POV.

I am planning out my upgrades to brew stand 2.0. It's gonna take a while, unless I get some more 65 hour work weeks(which is likely ). Anyway I would really like some heat control on my mash, and my current wimpy IC is, well wimpy. So along the line of what BaltoBrewer does I am considering two options, and the price difference is significant. I am already planning on getting another pump.

Option one:
Chillus Convolutus
Use it for controlling mash temp by running mash and hot water from HLT thru it
Use it for chilling wort by running wort and ice water from HLT thru it, after using ground water. Wort will be recirculated back into BK for whirlpool.
Pros:
Simple
easy
cheaper
should be able to get away with only one love controller.
Cons:
May not be as good as the big IC

Option two:
Huge IC with Jamil arm and convoluted tubing for heat exchanger in HLT
Use convoluted tubing heat exchanger in HLT to control mash temp
Pros:
Lots of control
All the advantages of Jamil's Whirlpool chiller
Cons:
Need more Love controllers
Uses more water in chiller and heat exchanger
Expensive

So given this is it worth it to spend the extra and get the IC and the heat exchanger? Is there enough of an advantage? I am really liking the idea of just the chillus convolutus, but am not as clear on whether there would be much of an advantage with one over the other.

[Mylo]

Fwiw, I am designing my next sculpture and contemplating the same thing. Baltobrewer's stand is efficient, convenient, and hell - it looks like a work of art! I used to use a homemade (non-convoluted) CFC to chill my wort - which did take a long time. If it wasn't for the super quick chilling that I am now able to do with JZ's chiller - I would definately build an exact replica of Baltobrewers.

However, now that I am able to cool the entire 10 gallon batch down in 15 min - I am sold on the JZ chiller. In my new sculpture, I had intended on starting with the chiller in my HLT tank - as the HERMS coil, and then moving it over to the BK for chilling purposes. That works great except for two things - #1) I'd have to take out and put back in the HLT Thermowell every time I removed or replaced the coil. (unless I do a spigot mounted one), and 2) I still might need a coil in my HLT for my ice bath "secondary" chilling here in the summer.

I'm probably going to bite the bullet and get another coil in my HLT. The convoluted sounds like an interesting idea for this application - but I wonder if pieces of grain will get stuck in there or not.


Mylo

[fastdogbrewing]

Was thinking some of the same things. Also if you are using the huge IC for mash temp control that is a LOT of liquid left in the IC. The BaltoBrewer setup has it's down sides, including some heat loss, but at the same time there is less hardware being moved from tank to tank. For my setup the transfers would happen with hose and SS QDs.

From an engineering tech POV I can see the advantages in both, and for me the downside to the BB setup is the fear of not being able to see inside the CFC. I am looking for some first hand experiences if anyone has any, and if there is really an advantage one way or another.

Wish I could get JZ and BB to pipe in.

[Mylo]

Also if you are using the huge IC for mash temp control that is a LOT of liquid left in the IC.

Good point, however, for simplicities sake - you might want to just factor in that loss to your efficiency.


Mylo

[fastdogbrewing]

I'm already loosing way to much IMHO. The more wort in the fermenter the more beer right.

I guess that's the price you pay for better beer.

After looking at the morebeer stuff and putting everything into a Visio(yeah I was bored waiting for some subcons ) I think I can do the upgrade with a jamil IC and whirlpool AND a heat exchange for about $300. This includes another pump. I will have to replumb a few things and eliminate some QDs in favor of hoses connected to the pumps with hose barbs on one end and QDs on the other. I am going to look into the band style hose clamps that don't do as much damage to the hoses. I will just make sure I clean really well. With two pumps I should be able to pump a ton of PBW thru the whole system.

Once of the things I am thinking of is instead of doing multiple Love controllers using just one. I have a thermometer on my HLT now. I am going to move it to the MT. I will put the thermistor from the controller in the BK. During mash I will constantly recirc the mash thru the heat exchanger and recirc the HLT water(whirlpool style) and control the burner on the HLT to control the water temp in the HLT. It will take me a while to figure out the losses and effects of environmental changes but I should be able to keep a consitent mash temp with just the one controller. There will be heat loss, but as long as I can keep it constant I should be able to account for it.

If anyone is interested in seeing my drawings I uploaded them to my site.
http://fastdogbrewing.com/Images/brewery/Visio-Chillus_Convolutus_all_lines_with_color_for_steps.pdf
http://fastdogbrewing.com/Images/brewery/Visio-IC_and_Heat_Exchanger_in_HLT_all_lines_with_color_for_steps.pdf
http://fastdogbrewing.com/Images/brewery/Visio-IC_and_Heat_Exchanger_perm_lines_and_removables.pdf
http://fastdogbrewing.com/Images/brewery/Visio-perm_lines_and_removables.pdf

[Hammer]

Fast Dog.

In terms of losing wort in the chiller, I assume you mean post boil. I use just two silicon hoses and a pump to whirlpool...

I use my IC for mash control. I put three way valves on it so I can direct to what type of fitting I want to use. So durring mash the 3ways point to the plactic QDC's. Durring sparge I run the hot liquor water throught the IC to clean it out. At 20 mins left in the boil I change the 3ways to point to my hose fittings and submerge the IC in the brewpot. I hook up the water in and out, then hook the discharge from the pot into a pump and then to a whirlpool arm that I made. I lose about 3/4 - 1 pint between the hose and the pump. But I am willing to give that up for the hop aroma and the lower potential for DMS by crashing the wort down.

I have not measured it but feel confident I would loose more if I recurc'd the whirlpool through the coil or my old counterflow.

.02

[fastdogbrewing]

I was referring to what is left in the heat exchanger when its used to control mash temp.

[Mylo]

You could probably put another valve and line to flush the HERMS coil with sparge water. I put one on this diagram. Now that I think of it, it would also help if you ever needed to top off the boil kettle (overshot your pre-boil gravity?). I have also realized why Baltobrewer put two valves on his towers - so he does not have to disconnect anything during the brewsession - definitely worth the extra expense.

Here's what I am thinking, so far.




Mylo