Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:31 am

Elbone wrote:The MSDS of PBW mentions sodium metasilicate (30%), along with sodium percarbonate as the ingredients. Is there a cheap source of sodium metasilicate? (I assume that's the chelating agent used?)


Sodium metasilicate is used in lots of detergents to get the pH up to where the greases/fats get saponified so that's a source - buy a detergent that contains it. It is a sequestrant. If calcium is present calcium silicate will be formed but that is insoluble so metasilicates aren't used with hard water unless there is a chelating agent present as well. Chelation is not the same as sequestration (it's a type of sequestration). In chelation (the word comes from the Greek word for "claw") the metal ion is surrounded and grabbed by the chelating agent in multiple places (6 with EDTA) such that the ion no longer is available for other chemical reactions. The complex is soluble (at least with the chelants I know about). In simple sequestration the metal ion is tied up by formation of an insoluble precipitate (such as calcium silicate) which can leave streaks. That's why glassware comes out of your dishwasher streaky if the water is at all hard unless you add one of those rinses which is supposed to prevent that and I'll bet a couple of mugs of my best that those are based on EDTA.

I did find cheap EDTA tetrasodium salt. It's lot's less expensive than the ACS grade disodium salt (requires more processing to make the stuff) I have in the lab. AFAIK, its chelating properties should be no different as it is the deprotonated acid that does the job. $21 a pound. Now that's much better.
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Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:16 am

Elbone wrote:The MSDS of PBW mentions sodium metasilicate (30%), along with sodium percarbonate as the ingredients. Is there a cheap source of sodium metasilicate? (I assume that's the chelating agent used?)

Isnt' that what they were using to destroy engines in the "Cash-for-Clunkers" debacle?


"Red Devil TSP/90" is 100% sodium metasilicate. I've found 1 and 4 pound packages of it at Ace Hardware.
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Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:37 am

Bokonon wrote:
Elbone wrote:The MSDS of PBW mentions sodium metasilicate (30%), along with sodium percarbonate as the ingredients. Is there a cheap source of sodium metasilicate? (I assume that's the chelating agent used?)

Isnt' that what they were using to destroy engines in the "Cash-for-Clunkers" debacle?


"Red Devil TSP/90" is 100% sodium metasilicate. I've found 1 and 4 pound packages of it at Ace Hardware.

Price??
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Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:33 pm

Bokonon wrote:"Red Devil TSP/90" is 100% sodium metasilicate.


So I guess that's what phosphate free TSP is!
ajdelange
 
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Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:33 pm

gruversm wrote:
Bokonon wrote:
Elbone wrote:The MSDS of PBW mentions sodium metasilicate (30%), along with sodium percarbonate as the ingredients. Is there a cheap source of sodium metasilicate? (I assume that's the chelating agent used?)

Isnt' that what they were using to destroy engines in the "Cash-for-Clunkers" debacle?


"Red Devil TSP/90" is 100% sodium metasilicate. I've found 1 and 4 pound packages of it at Ace Hardware.

Price??


I don't have my receipt handy but it was just over $10 for the 4 pound package. About 30% sodium metasilicate and 60% oxiclean free makes a pretty close PBW clone at a much cheaper cost. I use the sun oxi free from the dollar store and the MSDS says it is 60% sodium carbonate and 40% sodium percarbonate
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Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:19 pm

Bokonon wrote:About 30% sodium metasilicate and 60% oxiclean free makes a pretty close PBW clone at a much cheaper cost.

What do you add for the final 10% of your blend?

Are you blending by weight or volume?

No one sells PBW locally and I have to pay airfreight to bring it in, so it costs me twice as much as what you pay for it on the mainland.
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Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:02 pm

You shouldn't be allowed to advertise something as TSP if it doesn't contain phosphates...it is sort of...in the name. I think phosphates are coming out of favor due to ground water pollution but people should be educated to look for things that don't contain the phosphates instead of selling phosphate-free "tri-sodium phosphate".
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Re: Cheaper PBW replacement...?

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:38 pm

bcmaui wrote:
Bokonon wrote:About 30% sodium metasilicate and 60% oxiclean free makes a pretty close PBW clone at a much cheaper cost.

What do you add for the final 10% of your blend?

Are you blending by weight or volume?

No one sells PBW locally and I have to pay airfreight to bring it in, so it costs me twice as much as what you pay for it on the mainland.


Oops my first batch was 40% sodium metasilicate and 60% oxiclean free. It seemed a bit rough on the hands so I scaled back to 30% and 70% which matches the PBW numbers I could find.

I mix up by weight and then have been dosing by volume. 1 tbsp per gallon of water
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