Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:56 am

p.s. My HLT does double duty as a pre-chiller. After my mash I fill that cooler up with ice water. Chilling water goes through the coil and then into my normal chiller, so I'm chilling with ~32 degree water.

Yes, the B3 systems are HERMS, but they won't call it that because "HERMS" is a trademark or some such.

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Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:52 pm

Direct fired RIMS. I think it is the way to go.

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Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:50 am

So I just read an article on some guys site that basically said that you can't do a step mash with a HERMS because the temp of the exchanger/hot water would have to be higher than your target temp. The guy said that if you have your water temp at your target temp the only part of the mash that will be at your target temp will be the very top of your grain bed and the rest will only slowly heat up. Does anyone have any data to refute/ prove this? I'm thinking of doing a HERMS but I think it would only be good for a mash out.

here's the guy's site:
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/HERMS.html
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Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:55 am

Brant wrote:So I just read an article on some guys site that basically said that you can't do a step mash with a HERMS because the temp of the exchanger/hot water would have to be higher than your target temp. The guy said that if you have your water temp at your target temp the only part of the mash that will be at your target temp will be the very top of your grain bed and the rest will only slowly heat up. Does anyone have any data to refute/ prove this? I'm thinking of doing a HERMS but I think it would only be good for a mash out.

here's the guy's site:
http://sdcollins.home.mindspring.com/HERMS.html


He's right. I keep my HLT at mash temps + 3 degrees, and even though when I kick it on the HLT rises very fast, the MT is veeeeeeeeeeeery slow to respond. I don't step mash.
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Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:26 am

baltobrewer wrote:He's right. I keep my HLT at mash temps + 3 degrees, and even though when I kick it on the HLT rises very fast, the MT is veeeeeeeeeeeery slow to respond. I don't step mash.


OK, well then... what is the point of using either RIMS or HERMS then? Isn't is just an issue of flow rate (ie. you are recirculating very slowly) and probe location? I am not speaking from experience here - but I would guess that if you had a slow flow rate and your probe at the bottom (a la Lonnie) - that even if you kept your HLT at mash temp +3 then you would have (at some point) mash at the top that is 3 degrees hotter at the top than at the bottom - and when you hit your new target - most of your mash would have overshot your target? It sounds to me like the (no more than) 3 degree differential is critical. Any more and you denature too many enzymes.

Would it be better to run with a higher flow rate, and maybe have your probe in the middle? At what point do you risk compacting the mash by going to fast? Sorry for all the questions - but I looked at RIMS or HERMS as my next logical upgrade. If I can't do step mashes safely and in reasonable time - then it's hardly worth it. I'll just stick with a cooler. Are you telling me that its only benefit is to combat heat losses from constant recirc?


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Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:13 am

I've read that site before, and it does have some good information. My take is that it doesn't say that you can't do a step mash. It says that a HERMS isn't ideal for it, and that's his opinion. His reasons are valid. However, I still think a HERMS is better than the alternatives, and it certainly is better than my previous alternative. I used to pull out some of the wort, heat it on my stove in a sauce pan, and pour it back on top. This was a major pain. The next obvious alternative that comes to my mind is a direct fired mash. That certainly risks temperature gradients and denaturing enzymes too.

I don't get 4 degrees/minute temp rises. It is probably more like 1 degree/minute over the course of the step. But it is not at all linear in my system. That's why I want to install a PID.

When I do a step mash I don't start with my HLT water at 170. As described above, it starts around 150 or so, probably a little more. I never thought about exactly +3 degrees, but that's kind of what I've approximated, maybe 5. I think the difference makes the step go faster. However, if you had no difference at all, you could still get your mash to the desired temperature, assuming a lossless system.

Consider this. Mash is at 122. HLT is at 150. Wort is pumped out of the mash at 122, heated to 150, and then back into the mash. At the beginning you have 150 degree wort at the top of the mash tun, and 122 at the bottom. Now what happens when you keep recirculating? Well, you draw out more 122 wort and replace with more 150. The 150 wort is permeating more and more into the mash bed. If you recirculate all of the wort, the entire mash will be 150. Now the grain is holding some temperature, but not as much as the liquid. So recirculate more than the entire mash, or have the HLT temp a little higher to compensate.

Brant wrote:
The guy said that if you have your water temp at your target temp the only part of the mash that will be at your target temp will be the very top of your grain bed and the rest will only slowly heat up.

I reread what that guy said, and really he isn't in conflict with what I wrote above. His point is that you have to recirculate the entire mash, and that takes time. I don't disagree with that.

I do run my pump pretty slow. I got a stuck mash once from running too fast and don't want to repeat that. Also, if you run the pump too fast you really aren't getting full use of the heat exchanger.

Now that I think about this, the temperature gradient goes a long way in explaining the non-linearity I've observed. The temp rise is very slow at the beginning, at which point there is hot stuff on the top and only some minimal conductive heat transfer to the bottom. My thermometer is reading the temp near the bottom.
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Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:19 am

If you use a grant to prevent a stuck mash, would you lose too much heat?
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Re: RIMS vs HERMS

Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:10 pm

foomench

would you agree that the introduction of a mash stirring device may help eliminate the stratification in the mash tun. I agree that the slow draining/ washing of the grain can cause much higher temps at the top of the mash. If that mash was steadily moving or churning that may help eliminate the difference in temperature. Of course that may also cause suck mashes as the grain bed in always unsettled. Or would it? If the grain was in a steady state of floatation due to proper grain to water ratio it should be suspended and not get stuck, right.

Thoughts?
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