Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

[BigNastyBrew]

Thanks again. Typing all of that is no small task so I appreciate the attention.

What is my goal? Authenticity. If it tastes horrible but authentic, I'll probably not brew it again. If it's authentic and wins contests, so be it. I just want it to be "real." So with that, I understand the water profiles have to be similar to the brewers who brew the real deal.

For my hefeweizens, I used Hallertau.

Ok. I understand that the chloride/sulfate ratio is hops perception and that we deal with relativity and not absolutes on that one. That is where my concern was for the 200:6 Chloride:Sulfate ratio (by adding 5.5 grams of calcium chloride only to get a lower RA).

I also get the fact that my lighter beers probably werent't at the right pH (probably entirely too high) but I narrowed that down to water profile as the natural culprit. The darker beers? Sure, I get that they are more acidic and would probably give me the ideal pH with my given water.

Believe it or not, I understand what you're saying on all of the above posts. For now, I am sold on 4:1 as I've put it in the spreadsheet and like the numbers. I'm sold on a potential acid addition because the chloride to sulfate ratio adding calcium chlroide just doesn't sit well with me (200:6). I do want it to be an estery and malty beer but with a 1.085 beer, I need some hops coming through a little. For this beer, I'm using Tettnang and Saaz.

One more question, if you don't mind. It's back on the sulfate. Knowing that I understand its affect on perceived hop bitterness and how the Chloride/Sulfate ratios work, help me understand the 5.5gm addition of calcium chloride. Once I see the logic behind that one component, I think I will decide which direction I will try.

The pH meter is a tool I'm greatly looking forward to using. My beers have gotten good but I'm looking for better beers. Understanding beer chemistry is my current concentration.

[Kaiser]

A.J. makes some good points here with respect to the desired level of minerals in brewing water for continental styles. While I'm not familiar with the waters used for Belgian beers I know that brewers in Germany prefer soft water. And let me make some comments in that respect.

Many actual brewing water reports from Germany that I have seen published (mostly in papers) have calcium levels that are below 50 ppm. In addition to that Kunze writes that the practice of adding Gypsum to the water to increase its hardness has largely been abandoned. The main means of combating high alkalinity these days is a combination of lime treatment to precipitate CaCO3 and the use of acid malt or sour mash. Lime treatment will remove some of the calcium from the water.

I also agree that you should not try to lower the RA below -30 ppm CaCO3 with the use of salts alone. This gives you way to much calcium. Getting to -15 and then using 1-3% acid malt in an all pilsner malt grist gets me to the desired mash pH of 5.3-5.4. At this level the acid malt does not make the beer taste sour and it should be (along with lactic acid) should be considered the only way of acidifying the mash for German beers.

I noticed John recommending 200ppm Ca in a water profile for a Dortmunder (or was it SO4) in one of the recent BS water shows. I doubt that this will give you a realistic Dortmunder water profile. Given that the current Dortmunder water has about 50 ppm Ca and 40ppm SO4 and that brewers are unlikely to treat it with Gypsum I would say that 200ppm Ca is way too much.

Personally I like to keep the Ca between 30 and 80 in my German beers depending on the style. A Dunkel can take more than a Pils. But I don't feel comfortable going any higher than 100 ppm.

Kai

[BigNastyBrew]

Good commentary. Thank you.

If I were to use acid malt, where would I find it? Is it a standard malt that most LHBS should carry? How much does one use as a percentage of the malt bill?

Any thought on what I asked about the sulfate staying so low? the 200:6 ratio of the chloride to sulfate?

Thanks

[ajdelange]

To summarize: You have water which when diluted with 4 parts of distilled (or other low ion water) will give you an RA of about 18 resulting in a dough-in pH of something near 5.78 in a Pils malt only mash. This water will contain calcium at 12 ppm and some magnesium at 7 (which should be enough for co-factor purposes) with sulfate at a nicely low 5.6 and chloride at 40 ppm. You might find that this water would give you a marginally acceptable mash pH especially if you added a little crystal or carapils or something similar to the grist to add acid but not so much as to deepen color appreciably. This water, with its total hardness of 62 ppm as CaCO3 meets the "fairly soft" description in the BJCP guide where it describes the ingredients for Tripel. Michael Jackson (The Great Beers of Belgium) wrote that the water at Chimay "... is remarkably low in dissolved solids of any kind, and it is clearly an influence in the softness of the beers." A very soft water will result in a pH of 5.75 - 5.8 and it is interesting to note that Jean de Clerck, who advised Chimay (and is buried there) considered pH 5.8 to be the "normal" pH for wort while recognizing that lower pH was desirable. Manfred Moll, in his presentation at Chair de Clerck XI (these sessions were titled "The pH Paradox") stated that 5.3 - 5.8 is optimum for saccharification while citing 5.5 - 5.7 as optimimum for fermentability. Based on this I think no salt addition might work out OK.

Jackson also wrote that the water at Westmalle, where Tripel probably originated is "...quite hard which suits the paler ales". Thus it appears that you can have a Trippel with water ranging from very soft, through fairly soft to quite hard. The question then becomes one of where to get the hardness (calcium).

Gypsum (calcium sulfate) is out given that you have chosen to use noble hops (Tettnang and Saaz). Sulfate above 10 mg/L will render noble hops harsh and dry.

Calcium carbonate is out because your mash pH is marginal and the carbonate in calcium carbonate increases alkalinity 7 times as much as the calcium reduces it.

This leaves calcium chloride. How much to use? Anywhere between none and say 11.4 grams to treat 10 gallons (tap + distilled). At this level (11.4 grams) total hardness would be 266 which qualifies as "quite hard" to my way of thinking puts your calcium at 95 mg/L, has the chloride at 184 mg/L and sets the RA to -40. This would result in a mash pH of something like 5.68 for a 100% pils malt bill.

Were I brewing this beer I think I would start with just the diluted water and some pils malt and do a test mash (a quart or so) and check the mash pH. If it came out at or less than 5.8 I think I'd go ahead and brew the beer and see how it turned out. If the mash came in above 5.8 I'd be tempted to add a little acidualated malt (you can buy this from B^3 or make it - see other thread on Tripel) to get it down to say 5.7. (1% nominally reduces pH by 0.1 unit). I would then brew the beer again using perhaps 4 grams of calcium chloride in 10 gallons water treated. If I liked the second brew better I might then add a couple of grams of gypsum to the next brew to see if you experience the same hops perception problem I do.

Nobody hits it spot on the first time out.

[BigNastyBrew]

Thanks again, brotha! You have been a wealth of knowledge on this.

The grain bill is 10.5lbs Pils and 4oz aromatic. I'll do a test mash wednesday because I'm brewing on Thursday.

[TimmyR]

I 2nd that motion from BNB....I am planning a similar recipe but X2 (see Tripe Post in this Forum) and splitting the fermentation between yeasts and POSSIBLY adding some Orval dregs to one batch.

Planning a similar approach and no sauermalt...unless my pH seems way high.

Cheers!

[BigNastyBrew]

Well, I added salts and no acid and hit 5.3 pH. I'm VERY pleased with that.

[BigNastyBrew]

Maintained 5.3pH the whole mash. 73% efficiency. Perfect

I came back to this post cause I was fucking hammered when I wrote it.

I added the salts only when I mashed. No acid but I had it ready. AJ, I went with gut feeling and did 2g gypsum and 2g calcium chloride anyway but I followed your 4:1 advice. I was very pleased with the results, of course.

Although it was sort of a pain in the ass to measure out water, I feel more confident in the water adjustment process now than I did before. I didn't get to test mash because I needed to soak the electrode for 12 hours. So, the test mash was the real mash.