Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Wed May 27, 2009 3:10 pm

For Hoppybrewah: If your water has an alkalinity of 218 ppm as CaCO3 (measured to end point 4.3) at pH 9 then it should take 3.1 mL of 88% lactic acid to move 10 gallons of it from pH 9 to pH 7. To take it from pH 9 to 7.1 requires 2.7 mL and to take it to pH 6 requires 9.9 mL and so on. Yes, indeed it does depend on the pH you are trying to reach. It also depends on the pH you start at. If your water had alkalinity of 218 ppm at pH 8 it would take 9.6 mL of 88% lactic to move it to pH 6.

For natmartin/DannyW: We know enough about 5 Star 5.2 to be able to draw some conclusions. It is "a proprietary mixture of phosphate buffers". As such and given that it is supposed to buffer to pH 5.2 we can determine the relative amounts of monobasic and dibasic phosphate salts in it but not, without analysis, whether they are sodium or potassium or some of each. Given the recommended dose the sodium and or potassium loads, however you split them, are more (something like 150 mg/L sodium or 230 mg/L potassium or half that much of each or some other combination) than I want in my lagers not to mention the fact that the buffering of a phosphate system at pH 5.2 is pretty poor. A citrate buffer should perform better (nearly 10 times the buffering capacity at 5.2) but might well taste too citrusy. Investigation up to this point has been at the computer and in the lab - not the mash tun i.e. we're still looking in to this.
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Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Thu May 28, 2009 5:10 pm

For Hoppybrewah: If your water has an alkalinity of 218 ppm as CaCO3 (measured to end point 4.3) at pH 9 then it should take 3.1 mL of 88% lactic acid to move 10 gallons of it from pH 9 to pH 7. To take it from pH 9 to 7.1 requires 2.7 mL and to take it to pH 6 requires 9.9 mL and so on. Yes, indeed it does depend on the pH you are trying to reach. It also depends on the pH you start at. If your water had alkalinity of 218 ppm at pH 8 it would take 9.6 mL of 88% lactic to move it to pH 6.


That is great - but how did you get there? Is there a formula? Does lactic acid have any taste at these concentrations?

Thanks!
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Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Fri May 29, 2009 5:01 am

There are formulas which must be used together. They are at www.wetnewf.org under "Water Acidification" and can be found other places on the net as well. I personally use my NUBWS (Nearly Universal Brewing Water Spreadsheet), also found at wetnewf, for such calculations but it is likely to be a bit overwhelming unless you are really interested in brewing water chemistry. Tom-O has taken the formulas and put them into a much less imposing spreadsheet which can be found at his website http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/tom/. His spreadsheet only does acidification calculations whereas the NUBWS does, well, nearly everything.

As for the taste I'd have to say I don't know. Lactic flavor is pretty strong (and, in my opintion quite nice even delightful in some beers which contain it) but how it would meld with your beer is another question and how you personally would perceive it is another question altogether. I'd start by putting some lactic in straight water at the concentrations in question and tasting the mix. I'm guessing 1 mL per gallon would be noticeable whereas 1/3 mL per gallon might not be.
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Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Fri May 29, 2009 9:39 am

Thanks for the info AJ - those are some great links! I haven't taken the time to try to understand your spreadsheet, but Tom O's looks very straight forward. Cool stuff.

Cheers!

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Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Sat May 30, 2009 11:35 am

Can someone with the spreadsheet (and understanding of it) please check my example below?

I am going to brew a Belgian Wit - SRM 3 - with balanced bitterness

Scottsdale has given the following report for 2008:

Alkalinity - 180 ppm
Calcium - 53 ppm
Cloride - 61 ppm
Magnesium - 22 ppm
Sodium - 64 ppm
Sulfate - 133 ppm
pH - 7.5

I picked a 50% dilution because of the high alkalinity. So, if I mash with 3.13 gallons of water and target a RA of -60, I need to add a gram of Calcium Cloride to bring my Cloride to Sulphate ratio more balanced. Since my water is so alkaline - I also have to add 2.3 ml of Lactic Acid to the mash to bring my RA down to my target.

Finally, on such a low SRM beer - I probably want to acidify my sparge a little bit. If I sparge with 5.3 gallons, I need to add a 2.1 mL of Lactic acid to keep my mash from going too basic.

Does this sound right?


Mylo
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Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Sat May 30, 2009 1:20 pm

Mylo: As your water stands (and the report is reasonable BTW - many aren't) you'll have a hefty RA of 129.3. Cutting 1:1 with DI water is a good plan. It will get your RA down to 66 but why stop there. 2:1 would get you an RA of 45 and leave you with 17.7 mg/L calcium going into the mash. 3:1 would bring your RA down to 34 and leave calcium at 13.25 mg/L. You could supplement that with say 1.9 grams CaCl2.2H2O per 5 gal treated which would keep your chloride below 30 (at 27 which shouldn't be a problem since the sodium will have been diluted down to 16 mg/L). This will get you 20 mg/L calcium for the mash/kettle (it will also drop the RA to 29 but thats hardly significant as any RA less than 50 is generally OK). Sulfate will still be higher than you might like if you plan to use delicate noble hops at 33 mg/L.

Why do you wan't an RA of -60? The only beers brewed with RA's that low (that I know of, anyway) are those of Burton, Vienna and Dortmund and that's becaues they have very hard water. I'd just dilute as above, check mash pH and throw in some lactic acid (no harm in doing that with a wit) if pH is too high.

To move 5.3 gallons of your undiluted, untreated water to pH 5.8 will take about 4.7 mL of 88% lactic acid. To move that much of the water diluted 1:1 would take approximately half that much, 2:1, 1/3 and so on. It probably isn't necessary to do this - especially if you are sparging with diluted water. All the negative effects of high mash pH are over by the time you get around to sparging. You do want a low pH going into the kettle however. Again, wit is certainly a style in which a little lactic flavor will do no harm.
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Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Sun May 31, 2009 2:02 pm

Great site guys, sorry for hijacking the thread.

Im brewing a Munich Dunkel and starting with a blank canvas with my water.

Can someone tell me if im way off the mark with my additions for my 25litres of mash water

Im going to add
Chalk 4 grams
Gypsum 2 grams
Calcium chloride 4 grams
Epsom salts 2 grams
Baking soda 4 grams

This gives me
Calcium 157ppm
Magnesium 9ppm
HCO3 265 ppm
Sodium 55 ppm
Chloride 96 ppm
Sulfate 95 ppm

The bicarbonates seem too high possibly, the chloride sulfate ratio seems ok. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Ebc 35

Also should i scale the additions up for kettle addition using the same ratio?
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Re: Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:32 am

3G_

If by "blank canvas" you mean you are starting with distilled water then those additions will give you

Calcium 126.4 40 (4/147.02) + 2/172.14 + 4/100.09)/25
Magnesium 7.9
Sodium 43.8
Chloride 77.16
Sulfate 75.8

Since all these numbers are larger than what you have calculated I must assume that "blank canvas" means a base water which is not deionized. I would need to know that water's total alkalinity (or bicarbonate) and pH in order to do an analysis.

The amount of bicarbonate you will see depends on the pH you go to when you synthesize this water and the acid you use to dissolve the carbonate. Assuming it to be pH 7 reached by using CO2 then the bicarbonate level would be 242 ppm for a Residual alkalinity of 119 ppm as CaCO3 and an alkalinity of 214. Effective hardness would be 331.

If your objective is to synthesize Munich water then we note that the effective hardness is about right but the alkalinity is almost double. Munich reports seem to average about 120 ppm as CaCO3 for the alkalinity. Most Munich reports list sulfate as around 10 ppm but I do have one report at 79. Munich water seems to be much lower (around 2 ppm) than these additions would give.

If your goal is simply to brew a Dunkles and you don't particularly care about starting with the same water that the Munich breweries do then your base water is probably OK as it is. This is based on the assumption that your water has calcium of about 157 - 126 = 31 mg/L 96 - 77 = 19 mg/L and so on i.e. the difference between what you calculated and what I calculated. You will be using dark malts and these are your best means of pH control. Simply make a test mash with about a litre of grist and check its pH. If it is too high (unlikely) then add a bit more dark malt. If it is too low then add a small amount of chalk to the mash until your pH is in the right region. Then scale the chalk addition up to the full mash size. Or you can skip the test mash and standby with pH strips (or meter) and some chalk when you do the actual mash adding chalk as necessary to hit the right pH. Be careful in doing this as the chalk takes some time to react and you can overshoot. Chloride and sulfate are not big players in Munich beers so I wouldn't worry too much about them.
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