Wild ale Q's

[j1m1]

Right i am posing this question to several forums as i could use some advice:

I plan on making a wild ale, this will be done with brett brux trois, acid malt and the dregs from several bottles of boon oude geuze (Pedio, lacto and acetobacter). The grist is 50% pils, 34% wheat 16% acid malt and bittereed to 15ibu approx.

My theory is this will make it tart/sour faster than using a commercial strain (as a lower PH is better for the bret and the bugs mean it shall work comparatively faster), also the substantial charge of brett will assist in cleaning up after the bugs.

Is there any advice or suggestions that might help.
Cheers guys

[Kbar]

Have only tasted some Brett strains, and know that is my favorite! Good luck!

[brewinhard]

Make a decent size starter and let it ferment to completion with the brett. This will take 7-10 days especially if using the tiny amounts in the WL vials.
Mash a bit higher to leave some dextrins behind for the bacteria to work on over time. You could always pitch the dregs right in the primary to give them a nice head start on the initial sugars present. If you go this route I would not aerate ad that could slow down the growth of the bacteria. Just expect a longer lag time ( up to 48 hrs is not uncommon).

[cdburg]

I'm not sure how the combination of the Brett Trois and the dregs would work, but I know that the Trois on its own isn't at all sour, and I would say only mildly tart. It makes for a great IPA, actually. Maybe the pedio, lacto and acetobacter would then work with the fruity esters created by the brett and turn them into acid. I have no experience. I just wouldn't expect much in terms of quick tartness or sourness from just that brett.

I do echo the suggestion for the big starter, preferably multi stage. Per White Labs, there are only 1.75 billion cells in one of the brett vials vs I believe ~100 billion saccharomyces cells in a vial. You're really going to need to grow up one vial.

[Ale_Satan]

I'm not sure how the combination of the Brett Trois and the dregs would work, but I know that the Trois on its own isn't at all sour, and I would say only mildly tart. It makes for a great IPA, actually. Maybe the pedio, lacto and acetobacter would then work with the fruity esters created by the brett and turn them into acid. I have no experience. I just wouldn't expect much in terms of quick tartness or sourness from just that brett.

I do echo the suggestion for the big starter, preferably multi stage. Per White Labs, there are only 1.75 billion cells in one of the brett vials vs I believe ~100 billion saccharomyces cells in a vial. You're really going to need to grow up one vial.

cdburg
What's your prefered starter wort for bugs?

[cdburg]

cdburg
What's your prefered starter wort for bugs?

I apologize ahead of time for the thread hyjack...

I've never done a starter for anything other than brett. Everything else just gets pitched. I don't want to risk messing with the ratio of bugs.

With brett, I make a normal starter, I just let it go for about 6-7 days between steps, on a stir plate (separate stir bar only for brett, because I'm paranoid). I usually aim for normal "ale" pitching rates (some people say lager rates are better, which may be true). With two vials, it usually takes about 1000 ml to 1500 ml for the first step and then 2000 ml to 3000 ml for the second. The fermentation usually takes about 10-14 days to finish. Pitching at lager rates might help speed that up. I like the ester profile with my current pitching rates though.

If I oxygenate (normal "ale" rate), I get from 1.060 to about 1.007 or 1.005, like a super Cal Ale but huge tropical fruit flavors and aromas. If I don't oxygenate, it usually takes it all the way to 1.000, but it takes closer to three weeks. I think the taste is slightly cleaner with no oxygen (seems to match what Chad Yacobson said on the Crooked Stave show), but I need to do a split batch to confirm. My mind could be messing with me.

There's a really good article in BYO this month about Brett IPAs. It might be worth a look, if you're thinking of brewing one.

[Ale_Satan]

cdburg
What's your prefered starter wort for bugs?

I apologize ahead of time for the thread hyjack...

I've never done a starter for anything other than brett. Everything else just gets pitched. I don't want to risk messing with the ratio of bugs.

With brett, I make a normal starter, I just let it go for about 6-7 days between steps, on a stir plate (separate stir bar only for brett, because I'm paranoid). I usually aim for normal "ale" pitching rates (some people say lager rates are better, which may be true). With two vials, it usually takes about 1000 ml to 1500 ml for the first step and then 2000 ml to 3000 ml for the second. The fermentation usually takes about 10-14 days to finish. Pitching at lager rates might help speed that up. I like the ester profile with my current pitching rates though.

If I oxygenate (normal "ale" rate), I get from 1.060 to about 1.007 or 1.005, like a super Cal Ale but huge tropical fruit flavors and aromas. If I don't oxygenate, it usually takes it all the way to 1.000, but it takes closer to three weeks. I think the taste is slightly cleaner with no oxygen (seems to match what Chad Yacobson said on the Crooked Stave show), but I need to do a split batch to confirm. My mind could be messing with me.

There's a really good article in BYO this month about Brett IPAs. It might be worth a look, if you're thinking of brewing one.

Thought about doing an all Brett. next but have decided to keep my sour cellar going and do a Consecration clone instead. I got in touch with Mike "The Mad Fermentationist" and he helped me design a sour blend from what i have been growing in the lab. It is based of the Roselare blend but with a dark Belgian strain replacing the sherry strain and a couple different brett strains. Thanks for sharing your process!

[cdburg]

Thought about doing an all Brett. next but have decided to keep my sour cellar going and do a Consecration clone instead. I got in touch with Mike "The Mad Fermentationist" and he helped me design a sour blend from what i have been growing in the lab. It is based of the Roselare blend but with a dark Belgian strain replacing the sherry strain and a couple different brett strains. Thanks for sharing your process!

Mike should definitely be able to help. I've learned a ton from his blog. Luckily, I was fortunate enough to pick up some East Coast Yeast Bug County, so I didn't need to mess with a blend. Half got that, and the other half got a Wyeast sour blend with Russian River Beatification and some other dregs. I used both blends for primary and secondary. Both are about two years old now, and the Wyeast half (with the dregs) is more sour. Go figure.

Anyway, back to the original question, I've had the most luck with Lacto (Wyeast's version) for quick sours. I let the Lacto ferment the wort, in the kettle, for about a week at 90F (ferm wrap and Ranco). I then boil it for about 15 minutes to kill the Lacto, cool it and pitch the Wyeast German Ale (1007). I've got one going now that the Lacto took to 3.39 pH. I'm hoping the Saccharomyces will then drop it a hair more. I'm then going to add some tart cherries. Lacto is different than brett in the sour character, but you might be able to let the Lacto to the bulk of the acid production and either add a clean ale yeast or a mix of ale yeast and brett and other bugs, for character.