Splashing mash / whirlpool and HSA

[Eamonn]

I was of the belief that HSA didn't really exist at a homebrewer scale. However my beer appears to be going "stale" during fermentation or shortly after kegging. Beer starts off nice - malt/hop flavour is present in early fermenter samples, but dissappears completely within a week or so, as does malt flavour. The beer also seems to increase in bitterness in a harsh/unpleasant way. Beers with roastiness seem to maintain the "roasty" but not much else. The beers dont seem infected - no gushers, no visual signs, no horrible tastes, etc. The beer just seems unfresh and flavourless, and looks dull (although head retention is perfect). The yeast cake smells stale as well. However I've tasted other peoples oxidised beers and they seem more sherry/cardboard like - somewhat different to what I am getting.

I've gone to extreme lengths to remedy any possible sanitiation or materials issues, and now I'm starting to wonder - maybe I have been HSA'ing my wort? It is the last thing I would have suspected.
I stir my mash a fair bit (which is quite a thin mash), and create some splashing while trying to get a whirlpool going. And I dribble my wort quite slowly and carefully into my plate chiller.

Cheers,

Eamonn

[raven19]

If I read this correctly you say you are whirlpooling your Mash?

Whirlpooling is for the wort in the kettle prior to draining to your chiller (separating hops and break from the wort).

Can you get some close by brewers to observe your brewing methods and sample your beers for additional feedback?

[Datamike]

The beer also seems to increase in bitterness in a harsh/unpleasant way. Beers with roastiness seem to maintain the "roasty" but not much else. The beers dont seem infected - no gushers, no visual signs, no horrible tastes, etc. The beer just seems unfresh and flavourless, and looks dull (although head retention is perfect). The yeast cake smells stale as well. However I've tasted other peoples oxidised beers and they seem more sherry/cardboard like - somewhat different to what I am getting.

A lot of those descriptors sound like the result of high mash PH. I'd recommend checking your water and make sure you're taking PH readings with a calibrated meter (not strips - they suck).

Good luck!

Michael

[Eamonn]

stirring mash, whirpooling after boil. Maybe too vigorously on both counts.
I have alkaline water, and require 6% acidulated malt get PH down to 5.4-5.3. Seems to need 6% regardless of beer colour.

Something very strange is going on - sure I'll sort it eventually. In the meantime I'm getting ready for my trip to the USA west coast!

[Mills]

Are there any quality judges in your area? Have them try the beers and see what they are getting out of them.

Mills

[Thirsty Boy]

Could be more than just pH... might be straight out water composition. I find that too much carbonate (or bi carbonate especially) does the things you describe. Even if you have adjusted your mash pH... the carbonates are still there. Perhaps try cutting your water with distilled or RO??

Mind you it also sounds a lot like oxidation of the garden variety... at higher levels it might be cardboard/sherry, at lower levels it can just dull the beer down.

I really doubt if its HSA - unless you aerate the absolute snot out of it, the detrimental effects of HSA dont show up all that quickly, really they just mean your beer ages prematurely, but not within a week of tapping the keg! Have a review of your post fermentation handling processes to see if there is anything in there that could be improved, then think about your water chemistry.

apart from that -- I got nothin.

[ajdelange]

I have alkaline water, and require 6% acidulated malt get PH down to 5.4-5.3.

That does seem quite a bit.

Seems to need 6% regardless of beer colour.

That's not really terribly surprising.

Something very strange is going on - sure I'll sort it eventually. In the meantime I'm getting ready for my trip to the USA west coast!

The need for 6% sauermalz speaks to high alkalinity. Even though at pH 5.4 all but about 12% of the bicarbonate has been converted to CO2 (and been driven off) if the original levels are high enough that 12% may be enough to be responsible for the problems. Dry decarbonating the water (boil or lime treatment) or, as has been suggested, diluting it. Is sulfate also high? They can act with the hops to produce harsh bitterness but this would be detectable in samples tasted from the fermenter.

[Cliff]

I can't imagine why you suspect that aeration on the hot side would produce the result you described.