2nd Gordon Show lager question

[Kaiser]

A couple questions about this:
1 - what is your AMBIENT temp when you are letting rise naturally? Is it kept at 48f - 50f, lower??

For my fermentations, ambient temp seems to be 2-3 F lower than the actual fermentation temp

2 - When you say you let it sit for 4 weeks, is this at 48f - 50f, or do you lower the temp?

If it is still fermenting (e.g airlock activity) you should keep it at this temp or raise the temp a little

3 - finally, if it's a more complex lager, like a Martzen vs a CAP, would you let it "condition" longer, like you said for the Bock?

Maerzens are traditionally conditioned for a long time, but don't have to. I largered mine for 1 months before I was forced to drink it b/c of my move. And at that time it was just fine. I still like to lager my beers near freezing as this will help the yeast and haze to drop out. Maerzens or Bock I try to give a little more time. They are usually seasonal beers for me and I anticipate longer lagering when I plan them.

Only once had I a primary fermentation that took longer than 4 weeks. I didn't pich enough yeast and it ended up having a yeasty note to it that took some lagering to get rid of.

Kai

[Kaiser]

I'm pretty sure I heard Dan say that. I will have to go back to the archives to check on this. I remember it because it sounded to couterintuitive and I was wondering why none of you guys said anything regarding this cold diacetyl rest.

I checked, and Dan did indeed say that he holds a diacetyl rest at about 6*C (46F). It's around 40:00 of the 2nd Dan Gordon show. It didn't sound as if he had gotten the temperatures wrong.

Diacetyl reduction will work at these temperatures as long as you make sure not to shock the yeast into dormancy while chilling the beer.

Kai

[hopbumpingbrewer]

If it is a big lager, like a bock, it generally goes up to 6 weeks of fermentation.

Jamil,

I have read in New Brewing Lager, that it is wise to start removing yeast from the conical during primary fermentation. I have started doing this after about 2 weeks in order to get rid of any dead cells.

Do you think that this is really neccessary? I am fermenting a 1.072 Maibock at 50 degrees.

After 2 weeks my airlock is still bubbling every 4 seconds slow and steady. I checked the gravity on Sunday and it was 1.033.

All seems well, but I was just wondering about the yeast removal.

Carlo

[jamilz]

I don't think it is necessary. If the initial yeast was healthy, there shouldn't be a lot of dead cells at 2 weeks. You're probably dumping more live cells than dead ones.

[jamilz]

Well, I'll finally go on record not agreeing with Dan. I would say it is a waste of time to chill your beer to do a diacetyl rest. You might as well leave it at fermentation temp. It will take less time and you won't risk causing the yeast to drop.

I think the fermentation profile Dan uses results in super low diacetyl to start with, so no diacetyl rest is needed. If there were a lot of diacetyl, it would take forever to reduce at 46F.

[hopbumpingbrewer]

Thanks Pope.....

I haven't started pulling the yeast yet. I just wanted to get your thoughts.

I think everything is going well. I am gonna leave it alone.

Carlo

[Mr. Big]

I like the concept Jamil brought up - that is to pitch colder that fermentation temperature. I've just started doing that and diacetyl is no longer an issue. This has held true for ales. My question to Jamil is how do you get the wort to 50 or so? The Immersion chiller drops it to 80, but as I get close to the ambient temperature of my water, temperature change slows (as expected). If you are using an Ice Bath, how are you doing it? A copper coil in a bucket of ice water?

[Speyedr]

I like the concept Jamil brought up - that is to pitch colder that fermentation temperature. I've just started doing that and diacetyl is no longer an issue. This has held true for ales. My question to Jamil is how do you get the wort to 50 or so? The Immersion chiller drops it to 80, but as I get close to the ambient temperature of my water, temperature change slows (as expected). If you are using an Ice Bath, how are you doing it? A copper coil in a bucket of ice water?

I'm no Jamil, but I've used the copper coil (chiller) in an icebath and it works OK but you have to run the water more slowly to cool down before it leaves the chiller.
A better (and more environmental) mehod I've used is as follows. Once you've gotten down close to the tap water temp switch to icewater in a bucket. I use an old aquarium pump to transfer water from the bottom of the bucket up through my chiller (in the wort) and back out to the bucket, which is filled with Ice and those blue picnic ice pack thingies. This rechills the water as it gets circulated through the system.
If you use this in conjunction with jamil's Whirlpool method (see http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php for more on this) you can drop your temp fairly quickly. If you don't use this method and are not concerned about trub, you can just lift and drop your chiller in the wort to keep the wort circulating. If your wort is just sitting there it will take extra time to cool.

Rob