Safale S-04 on the Pro Side

[Mills]

Hey all, duckmanco shot me a PM with the question below. We figured we would pull the discussion over here to open it up to everyone. Here is his post below:

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Safale s04
From: duckmanco
Sent: Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:22 am
To: Mills
Message

Hey man,

Listened to session with you on it and as someone who later this year is hoping to do the same - go from homebrewing right into commercial brewing 7bbl batches, your interview was fantastic.

I especially liked and was intrigued by your choice of s04 dry yeast. Can you discuss why you chose it over other dry or liquid options, and other than your kolsch, are you using it for all your beers?

We are trying to pick a house strain also and wyeast 1968 is in the running as for us we are focusing on ales, both British and American and won't be filtering. I've taken notice from the BN that so many breweries use 1968 or an English strain, and while I like Chico/wlp001/bry-97/us05 I fear both that it might be too clean and not floc out like we'd need.

Anyway, great show and thanks for any info.

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Thanks Duck, I am glad that you enjoyed the show!

I chose the dry 04 for a few reasons.

1) It is affordable
2) It made brewing flexible as I could brew anytime I wanted and not having to wait for another beer being ready to pitch from
3) I wanted a yeast that flocs well, and it does a pretty good job with that
4) I feel like by controlling pitching temps I can get a range of yeast profiles, for clean to more expressive profiles of an english yeast
5) Pitching rate is consistent. I use 2 - 500g bricks per 15bbl batch (rehydrated).

I have tried some other dry strains like Nottingham and did not receive the flavor profile I was looking for. I use this strain in all of my beers with the exception of the kolsch and oktoberfest. With our Cal Common, we pitch at 58-60 and allow it to free rise up to 71. It takes five to six days to get the temp up to those temps so the yeast is in it's flavor creating stage all at cool temps which restrain esters.

I have nothing against liquid strains, and in a perfect world, I would probably be using WLP007 for the majority of my beers. But without a lab, or a means of cell counting and checking for pitch purity, I do not feel comfortable repitching the far more expensive liquid yeast.

Also, for me, it was one huge concern I could lay to rest as I launched a brewery. I had enough other things to worry about at that time (operating the equipment, if the chiller would function, what equipment would fail that day). With the dry yeast, I knew it was on hand, clean, and gave me a repeatable process.

As Nicole pointed out, the dry 04 does attenuate like crazy. Mid to high 80's is not out of the question, and higher if you try. Our IIPA got into the 90's. Please note though, that the majority of our beers are currently mashed at 147, a temp that we are experimenting with adjusting.

Let me know if my ramblings didn't answer all of your questions. Also, is there anyone else that has something to add from their experience?

Thanks again for listening everyone, it was a blast!

Mills

[duckmanco]

Thanks for answering Mills, and you pretty much nailed why I'm also considering dry yeast. After looking at a few vendors price sheets, I'm also finding that Danstars products are nearly as expensive as liquid cultures, but still offer the flexibility schedule wise for brewing.

So, I've basically narrowed my only dry choice to so4 as unlike us05, it will allow a more British like beer for when I will want to make British Bitters, Stouts, etc. My only real concern is making sure that American hops blast through the beer when I want to make clean American pale styles (IPA, pale, etc) BUT based on the brewcasters raving about your hoppy beers, I'm guessing its not a problem. What temps do you like for IPA's to include pitching temps and/if where do you let it free rise to.

Also, have you considered repitching so4 slurry down the road or is it not cost effective enough to worry about it?

[Mills]

We typically pitch around 65, allowing it to ramp up to 71 over the course of days. We will keep it under 68 for a few days then let it go. There has been some variation to our process now as the ambient temp in the brewery is colder (Michigan winters), we have to allow the beers less time with the glycol jacket on so that it has the umph to push fermentation temps into the low 70's were we want it at the end of fermentation.

That said, 04 is pretty clean. I don't get a ton of esters out of it, but the way we handle it probably has something to do with it. It is my understanding that the dry 05 can be dusty and slow to drop. That said, we have been using Biofine at a rate of 1000ml/15bbls with great success if you are thinking about fining.

We probably will get into some repitching in the future, but it will come on the heels of a rudimentary lab and some training on how to do things right.

As far as making hops pop through your yeast strain, just make sure you are hitting that thing strong in the late kettle and in the dry hop and you will be good to go. I don't think that moderate ester levels squash hop aromas and flavors, they can actually help accentuate them. Now residual sweetness and carmel flavor in a beer, well that is another thing.

Mills

[duckmanco]

I've got some wyeast 1968 slurry in the fridge saved for a CYBI Union Jack inspired IPA, but I'm thinking I'll give so4 a try instead so I can see how it does when blasted with American hops.

I'm thinking I'll pitch at 63F and let it free rise to 66F and hold it there for 2-3 days and then let it rise to room temp or 72F or so.

Mills, are you using pure o2 prior to pitching the rehydrated fresh pitches? I have pure o2 and normally don't use it for fresh dry yeast, but in a commercial setting I'd think you'd want to more so for some reason...

[Mills]

I've got some wyeast 1968 slurry in the fridge saved for a CYBI Union Jack inspired IPA, but I'm thinking I'll give so4 a try instead so I can see how it does when blasted with American hops.

I'm thinking I'll pitch at 63F and let it free rise to 66F and hold it there for 2-3 days and then let it rise to room temp or 72F or so.

Mills, are you using pure o2 prior to pitching the rehydrated fresh pitches? I have pure o2 and normally don't use it for fresh dry yeast, but in a commercial setting I'd think you'd want to more so for some reason...

Yes we use pure O2 on the wort. It is added inline on its way to the fermenter. Check out this picture gallery that shows how we handle yeast hydration and pitching.

I think that your pitching and fermentation schedule sounds good. Keep me updated on how the beer turns out.

Also, When it comes to scaling up recipes, use Tasty's "whirlpool counts as a 20 min addition" approach, it is quite accurate.

Mills



http://www.facebook.com/CrankersBrewery ... ums?ref=hl

Check out the Yeast Handling album and the BN Misc Album. Some of the pics have some pretty thorough descriptions.

[BeaverBarber]

Hey Mills,

I can't wait to try your beer. I've spent half of my adult life in East Anglia in England. I know of several breweries who use that yeast with amazing success...Grain Brewery near Norwich, Brewshed in Bury St. Edmunds, and I believe Humpty Dumpty might use it as well because they're the ones that helped set up the Brewshed operation. A couple of other microbreweries use the dry Nottingham yeast. Grain and Brewshed both make an American style ale with plenty of hop character, so that's certainly not a problem. I'm not sure why, but when I use S-04 at home, I get a lot of bubble gum flavored esters. Have you ever had that problem? If you have, what did you do to fix it?

[Mills]

I am relatively sensitive to esters. By saying that, when I taste with friends I generally would give the level of esters I perceive a level higher that they would on a consistent basis. That said, I have not gotten a lot of esters out of the 04 when I have been using it in the brewery. Are you rehydrating it?

Mills

[BeaverBarber]

No. I wasn't rehydrating the yeast. I just know that I really liked the beers from the breweries that were using the yeast, but my flavor wasn't the same at home. I was wondering if there was a temperature problem or if I should be rehydrating. I'm not trying to question you, because as a homebrewer I'm naturally not an asshole by default, but why would rehydrating yeast make so much of a difference since when you pour it into wort when that is essentially rehydrating it? Is there a sweet spot temperature-wise for that yeast? I know it works well because I've tasted so many great examples, but I haven't had any luck at home.