3rd Strike (Possibly 4th) and I’m A Pissed Off Brewer

[Jimbob]

I’ve been brewing about a year now. I started out with extract brewing and was make some decent beer. On a batch that I brewed to be ready on the 4th of July (a Real Ale Fireman’s 4 Clone – Blond Ale) the beer had a bad soapy flavor. The beer also would not carbonate very well but was very foamy. My first thought was my cleaning practices, at the time I was using Oxyclean (scent free). I tossed the beer, it was really that bad. At the same time I had a Sam Adams Summer Ale Clone ready to keg. Same thing happened. Soapy flavor and would not carbonate but had lots of foam. Last night (9/1/08) I bottled a Belgian Wit Beer, tasted and got the same damn soapy flavor. I was online while bottling and decided to hit the BN chat up and see if they knew. They posed lots of good questions and potential causes. The main thing they suggest was to 1) post to the forum and 2) send an email in to the show. On arriving at work (Today 9/2/08), I was listening to an archive of the Session – 3/2/08 Competition Brewing with JZ, and heard a call-in that had a similar issue as I have had. So here are my notes on my brews, these should answer most of the questions that I got on the chat and that I heard JZ ask the listener. There is a 4th batch in this mix, a Schwarzbier with ale yeast (I might not be defining this style properly) that was brewed between the Sam Adam’s Clone and the Belgian Wit. While, I didn’t get exactly what I was looking for out of this beer, I didn’t notice the soapy flavor. However, this beer aged for sometime with oak and whiskey. I kegged this beer last night also, it’s carbonating and I will taste it again tonight.

Cleaning and Sanitation
On the first batch I was using Oxyclean Free but changed to PBW. For sanitation I was using Iodophor but changed to StarSan. Every thing was cleaned and sanitzed the day of the brew session. In addition, between Batch 2 and Batch 3 I did a “Scorched Earth” cleaning and sanitizing of EVERYTHING, and then cleaned and sanitized prior to the brew session.

Equipment
10 gal Aluminum boil kettle, 48qrt cooler for mash tun, 5 gal water cooler for hot liquor tank, Glass carboys for fermentation (both primary and secondary), kegging and bottles

Batch 1 – Blonde Ale (Fireman’s 4 Clone)
Recipe Type – Extract
Water – Water for dispenser at store (I fill 5 gal jugs for drinking water)
Brewing – Full wort boil
Time In Primary – 5 to 7 days
Temp During Primary – Room Temp 75-78F (no temp control)
Time In Secondary – 2 weeks
Temp During Secondary – Room Temp 75-78F (no temp control)
Starter – 1 liter
Aeration – Shaking of carboy about 5 minutes
Kegged

Batch 2 – Sam Adam’s Summer Ale Clone
Recipe Type – All-Grain
Water – Water for dispenser at store (I fill 5 gal jugs for drinking water)
Brewing – Single Infusion @ 147F, Fly sparge in a rectangular cooler with copper manifold per “How to Brew”, 60 min boil
Time In Primary – 5 to 7 days
Temp During Primary – Room Temp 75-78F (no temp control)
Time In Secondary – 2 weeks
Temp During Secondary – Room Temp 75-78F (no temp control)
Starter – 1 liter
Aeration – Shaking of carboy about 5 minutes
Kegged

Batch 3 – Schwarzbier (w/Ale Yeast) aged with Oak and Whiskey (no noticeable soapy flavor --- will update after further tasting)
Recipe Type – All-Grain
Water – Water for dispenser at store (I fill 5 gal jugs for drinking water)
Brewing – Single Infusion @ 148F, Fly sparge in a rectangular cooler with copper manifold per “How to Brew”, 90 min boil
Time In Primary – 5 to 7 days
Temp During Primary – 64F (added a chest freezer with temp control, first batch to use)
Time In Secondary – 2 weeks
Temp During Secondary – Room Temp 75-78F (no temp control)
Starter – 1 liter
Aeration – Shaking of carboy about 5 minutes
Bottled

Batch 4 – Belgian Wit Beer
Recipe Type – All-Grain
Water – I designed my water this time using 90% distilled water and 10% tap water, I calculated this based on my water profile and using the spreadsheet from John Palmer’s website
Brewing – Single Infusion @ 147F, Fly sparge in a rectangular cooler with copper manifold per “How to Brew”, 60 min boil
Time In Primary – 5 to 7 days
Temp During Primary – 64F (added a chest freezer with temp control, first batch to use)
Time In Secondary – 2 weeks
Temp During Secondary – Room Temp 75-78F (no temp control)
Starter – 1 liter
Aeration – Shaking of carboy about 5 minutes
Bottled

These four batches used a 10 gal aluminum boil pot that was purchased prior to the first batch in this list. Prior to that I was using a 5 gal put and then adding water to get the 5 gal batch. I was thinking about this on the way to work this morning, is it possible that this could be a result of the aluminum boil pot? I have actually just upgraded my equipment and now have two kegs that I’m converting to a brew kettle and mash tun. I’m think of doing just an easy/cheap batch of extract in the new kettle to test this out. Please can you help me? I’m on the edge and could really use some help.

[Sent From My iPhone]

That's a tough one. Soapy off-flavors can come from yeast autolysis, but you don't seem to be leaving the beer in primary long enough for that to happen. 75-79* seems a little warm, but sounds like you got that taken care of with the chest freezer. Good luck.

[Thirsty Mallard]

Ok, I'm not sure if I am reading it right, but if I am you are getting the off flavor from your kegged beer. You may be having one of the same problems I had. For a while all my beer had a wierd mineral/soapy off-flavor. I mistakenly thought it was the water I was using, but after changing that, still had the problem.

Eventually I decided to completely disassemble each of my kegs and use a concentrated PBW solution to wash everything inside and out. I even left the kegs to soak overnight. Then I changed all my gaskets and cleaned out all my serving lines. I don't know what I cleaned out (my serving lines were only a few months old and my kegs smelled fine after being cleaned) but whatever it was is now gone. Now my beer tastes fine.

Don't know if that will help you at all, but try REALLY cleaning out those kegs. Now I disassemble, clean and change gaskets every time I keg a new beer.

[Jimbob]

Ok, I'm not sure if I am reading it right, but if I am you are getting the off flavor from your kegged beer. You may be having one of the same problems I had. For a while all my beer had a wierd mineral/soapy off-flavor. I mistakenly thought it was the water I was using, but after changing that, still had the problem.

Eventually I decided to completely disassemble each of my kegs and use a concentrated PBW solution to wash everything inside and out. I even left the kegs to soak overnight. Then I changed all my gaskets and cleaned out all my serving lines. I don't know what I cleaned out (my serving lines were only a few months old and my kegs smelled fine after being cleaned) but whatever it was is now gone. Now my beer tastes fine.

Don't know if that will help you at all, but try REALLY cleaning out those kegs. Now I disassemble, clean and change gaskets every time I keg a new beer.

You're right on track except for my newest beer which I bottled last night. I took a sample while bottling and it had the off flavor. I've done the same with respect to disassembly and cleaning of my kegs. I'm going to step back and take a hard look at my cleaning and sanitation and water. I've decided to pick a style, brew extract, work my way back to all-grain and try to dial in the problem.

[Mylo]

I have heard that aluminum brew kettles are fine, so long as you don't "go to town" on them with a green scrubbie. They need the oxide layer on them to not react with the acidic wort.

I would consider nixing the secondary if I were you - and just keep the beer on the primary cake for a week or more after your beer reaches terminal gravity. With fresh yeast, the risk of autolysis is not great. I have left mine on there for up to 4 weeks without issue. This might not solve your problem - but will remove the unneccessary transfer variable.

I would also look at maybe using some 5.2 buffer in your mash. It sounds like you have more luck with darker beers. If your pH is too high you might be pulling some tannins from your light grain bills.


Mylo

[bub]

check to make sure you have minerals in there.... the hops can do funky stuff if the minerals are off, I think that was my problem.
BUB

[BDawg]

I'm with Bub on this. 1) I think you are using too much distilled water and that is contributing to this.
2) I also think you should get an Oxygenation system (either an aquarium pump or an oxygen tank w/ stone). Lack of oxygen causes the yeast to create lots of weird tasting off flavors.
3) I started to do the 'no secondary' for a while, but found that the beers weren't as clear as when I did a secondary. Instead of the 1 wk primary, 2 wk secondary, or 2 week primary, no secondary, I went back to 2 weeks primary, 1 wk secondary. In my opinion, that regimen produced the best beers for me.
4) How much trub are you letting into the primary? Soapy off flavors are formed when fatty acids (from the proteins in the grains -- hot & cold break) react and oxidize with salts. If you have excessive break in the primary, it can contribute soapy off flavors.
5) Finally, how and how long are you letting it carbonate (I assume you are force carbonating)? You mentioned foamy without carbonation.....
I usually prefer the "leave it alone for a couple weeks at the serving pressure" method. Whenever I tried the "shake it up to carbonate quick" method, I ended up with fish-eye bubbles and therefore the co2 wasn't dissolved in as much as if I left it alone for a week or 2. It looks a lot like what you describe, foamy but it won't hold a head, and the beer tastes flat. This is important because the dissolved CO2 helps acidify the beer (water with dissolved CO2 forms carbonic acid) and since soaps are alkaline (think -- lye is highly alkaline), you may be percieving a less acidic / more alkaline finished product as the alkaline tastes of soap.

Hope this helps-

[noremorse1]

I'm with Bub on this. 1) I think you are using too much distilled water and that is contributing to this.

I agree with this as well. I have brewed using the 1 gallon jugs of Crystal Geiser spring water as they are often on sale for under $2.00 a gallon at Albertsons and have had great results. As far as distilled water... that may be giving you some issues.

I dont know much about force carbonation as I am just about to get into kegging my own beer but, what BDawg said about that sounds pretty solid to me based on my limited information.

The key here is not to get discouraged. You sound like you have an ace setup; I remember being really impressed with it when we were talking with you in chat about this. The experts on this site will help you weed this out and then your beers should be in top shape. Keep at it.