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What if you continually fed bugs?

https://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=24816

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What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:13 am
by PhillyBrewer
I was just wondering... what would happen if you regularly added a small amount of simple sugar (or something else) to a batch of fermenting beer with bugs in it? Would it speed up the souring process because the bugs would have more to eat and would be more active or can they only eat at a certain (slow) pace? Would it result in certain bacteria strains taking control and being more prominent? Would it have no effect at all?

Re: What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:48 am
by twoskis brewskis
I remember hearing about someting like this on the "Upstream Brewing" episode of The Sunday Session. I think they used wort instead of sugar. I can vouch for the quality of that beer...Excellent!

Re: What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:49 am
by Quin
In a mixed fermentation with Brett, pedio, lacto, and other yeasts, there are many different "fermentations" taking place over the course of months. Here is an excerpt from Raj Apte's notes from a presentation at one of the NCHF from years ago that explains it better than I could. http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/ ... dale.shtml http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/text.pdf

My guess is the beer would be one-dimensional as the other "fermentations" haven't happened yet.

The most traditional Flemish sour ales are Geuze and Kriek. Both of these ales are spontaneously
fermented, which means that no yeast is added by the brewer. But in fact every surface of the brewery is
covered with yeast as are all the fermentation and storage barrels. While many people like the idea that
Geuze can only be produced in Peyottenland because that is where the right yeast live, the truth is that
Brettanomyces was first isolated from English ale and is present in wineries throughout the world. So its
possible to inoculate Flemish sour ales using test tubes of sterile-cultured microorganisms, one after the
other, to rely on the brewery environment itself.

The second lactic fermentation is the staling process that most brewers seek to avoid by heavy hopping.
When the British first built their empire, the shipped beer all the way from Britain to their new colonies. To
protect against this secondary fermentation, they hopped the beer strongly. This is the origin of IPA, India
Pale Ale. At the time, the brewer was seeking the sweet taste of a fresh ale, despite the six month ship-
board aging. With aged hops, the Flemish ale readily undergoes lactic fermentation.

The third Pediococcus\Brettanomyces fermentation is rather interesting. Both bugs are careful, slow, and
very secretive. They can live in the wood used to age the barrels and are never explicitly added to the brew:
they simply persist in the barrel from batch to batch. This fermentation takes half a year. What do the bugs eat? All the simple sugars were eaten by the Saccharomyces and the few that it had trouble with were eaten by the Lactobacillus. The Pediococcus can produce enzymes to convert the complex sugars in the wort to
sugar. The enzyme floats about in the free wort, slowly turning complex sugars to simple sugars. The
Pediococcus has done this to feed itself, but the Brettanomyces goes along for the ride. While the
Pediococcus produces the acidity the Brettanomyces produces the earthiness. Why does this stop at the
end of the year? Not because the complex sugars have run out, but the wort has became so acidic that the
Pediococcus dies and with it the source of the enzyme, which soon decays. Also, the Brettanomyces (and
any residual Saccharomyces) have been eating up any oxygen that diffuses into the fermentation vessel,
typically a large wooden tun. But as the yeast die out, the oxygen level increases, and Pediococcus finds
oxygen toxic.

Left to itself and with a definite but decreasing supply of enzyme and with rising oxygen levels, the
Brettanomyces bravely marches on and is joined by Acetobacter. The former digests what sugars it can and
produces alcohol or acetic acid, depending upon whether there in oxygen present. The latter eats alcohol
and produces acetic acid. As the enzyme supply fails, the Brettanomyces starve to death, leaving only
Acetobacter. It would happily turn everything to malt vinegar if given lots of oxygen, time, and warmth. But
by now the ale is two years old and is ready for bottling.

Re: What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:02 am
by AdamWiz
PhillyBrewer wrote:...Would it speed up the souring process...
Sounds like you're just like me - always trying to think of a way to speed the souring process. I know people tell you to just tuck them away somewhere you'll forget about it, but that's easier said than done. I still look at my Oud Bruin nearly every day, and it is probably at least 10 months from being done. The constant additions of sugar or wort is an interesting idea, perhaps I should give it a try. I think i'm also going to start adding more bottle dregs from commercial sours more often. Here's an idea: what if every month or so, you crack open the fermentor and add a little bit of new wort and some sour bottle dregs?

-and Quin, your post was very informative.Thanks

Re: What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:20 am
by PhillyBrewer
Adam: Having a handful of sours going at once has changed me into a patient person. 8) I was just thinking about the concept and was curious what result it would have.

The idea you're talking about of continually adding wort is called a solera project.

Re: What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:17 am
by AaronWesternNY
Philly brewer- how would you know exactly what would be eating your simple sugar you are throwing in? I would think the primary yeast would eat it before the critters could.

Re: What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:54 pm
by brewinhard
The problem I foresee with adding continuous amounts of sugars (ie wort, sucrose, etc) is that the most active critters at the time will quickly devour any additions. As the ABV% in the beer approaches 8%, lactobacillus will quickly die out and therefore your beer will not sour as well as it could. I think your best bet for speeding a sour is to pitch some dregs and then wait. Sorry, but patience is key to make a proper, complex, developed sourness/wildness.

Re: What if you continually fed bugs?

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:59 am
by laikom
Brett likes to eat less fermentable sugars, it will even eat sugars present in wood. One idea would be to add wort with less of a conversion (mash higher), then add that. The primary yeast couldn't eat those sugars, but the brett could. Doubt it would get consumed any faster, but at least if you have patience you'll get more brett character. Lacto sours quickly, and a berliner weisse can be a great, funky, complex beer if done with a sour mash instead of a lacto culture. Berliner weisse is the sour I make when i need one to drink sooner than 1 year. I usually add a wine yeast and fruit to dry mine out/tart it up even more (and quicker). Peaches work really well, i'm sure other fruit would be just as good.

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