Nissan LEAF

[TheDarkSide]

If only they would develop a methane car, then the wheat beer business would take off and Mexico could be the new Saudia Arabia. They could then put a collector in the drivers seat for filling the tank.

I joke but I wish they was a reasonably priced alternative to gas. I just had a new roof put on my house and thought wouldn't it be great to install solar panels too, but man is it expensive.

[Stinkfist]

transmission and distribution losses of electricity are around the 6-10% range...no where near the horrible efficiencies of the combustion engine...with high voltage lines the loss is minimal. Granted the power generation source has losses nothing compares to the losses to the combustion engine...especially at the scale that we use it...using power from the grid will always be more efficient than that of the combustion engine...

This graph from Lawernce Livermore labs shows a much higher loss of energy in electrical transmission than you state.

http://edro.files.wordpress.com/2007/11 ... trends.gif

this is what i was looking at... http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/electricit ... ric_rates2 says losses due to transmission and distribution of electrical transmission are 6.5% in 2007. If you click on the links and then on the xls file you can calculate the losses for 2008 which are 6.15%

That chart you posted has way too much going on to figure anything realistic out...

[Stinkfist]

If only they would develop a methane car, then the wheat beer business would take off and Mexico could be the new Saudia Arabia. They could then put a collector in the drivers seat for filling the tank.

I joke but I wish they was a reasonably priced alternative to gas. I just had a new roof put on my house and thought wouldn't it be great to install solar panels too, but man is it expensive.

Personally I think the hydrogen car is what we will be driving...With the new ways to make hydrogen it requires almost no energy(using bio-organisms that excrete Hydrogen) It can be pumped into your car similar to gasoline, so Instant filling stations, the problem with the electric car is 1 range and 2 time to recharge and 3 battery waste products(but that is getting better)

I wish I was in an area to try Honda's Hydrogen fueled vehicle..I am assuming they are still doing that in LA? I haven't heard much about since..

[bcmaui]

That chart you posted has way too much going on to figure anything realistic out...

The Lawrence Livermore chart factors the energy potential and actual useful work.

The graph roughly shows about 75% (20 out of 27) of petroleum energy is wasted - probably a little lower than 80% car/truck waste only because it also factors in more efficient train and marine usage as well as less efficient air plane travel.

I shows overall electrical waste at 68%.

Here is a more recent chart and a PDF link to the assumptions built into the energy flow chart.

https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/energy/energy.html

This link shows that estimated rejected energy also includes the end-user as well - i.e. the use of an incandescent light bulb by the end user is also factored into waste in the system overall.

https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/new ... 07-02.html

[Stinkfist]

That chart you posted has way too much going on to figure anything realistic out...

The Lawrence Livermore chart factors the energy potential and actual useful work.

The graph roughly shows about 75% (20 out of 27) of petroleum energy is wasted - probably a little lower than 80% car/truck waste only because it also factors in more efficient train and marine usage as well as less efficient air plane travel.

I shows overall electrical waste at 68%.

Here is a more recent chart and a PDF link to the assumptions built into the energy flow chart.

https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/energy/energy.html

This link shows that estimated rejected energy also includes the end-user as well - i.e. the use of an incandescent light bulb by the end user is also factored into waste in the system overall.

https://publicaffairs.llnl.gov/news/new ... 07-02.html

So we are quoting the same website and getting different answers... I thought we were talking about how much energy is lost from the power plant to your house....not how much energy people waste by using crappy equipment...those are two different things...

I do not think you can count personal waste as a demerit to the efficiency of electricity distribution...It says more about people in general than the whether it is better or worse than some other sort of power such as a combustion engine...

Electricity is efficient at the source - but if you loose 50% of your power in transmission line losses, it still can be almost as bad as a gas engine.

this is what you were talking about....this is not what the link you posted is about....that is the link I posted...6-7% not 50%

the link you posted is basically the countries energy consumption and losses which the line losses makes up a very small amount of...

[bcmaui]

I think it is important not to ignore the overall effect. When you see that 2/3rds of electrical usage is wasted energy, it makes you think how can we improve on it? I can heat my home with electricity, but maybe oil (or something else) can do it much more efficiently. Just because it gets to my home in an efficient manner the end use of that product must be factored in.

You may be able to transmit electric power at 6% line losses, but if an electric vehicle (or any other device) generates additional waste in it's usage of electricity (inverter losses, waste heat, weight of batteries, etc.) that has to be factored in the overall picture.

I could also focus on the activity inside an engine piston and ignore the rest of the process and state that a certain portion of internal combustion is extremely efficient as well.

Electricity is less wasteful than petroleum, but not nearly as portable.

It is all very interesting though. The potential to do much more with the current amount of energy we currently produce is a way to stretch the coal, oil, solar, wind, is eye opening.

[Stinkfist]

I think it is important not to ignore the overall effect. When you see that 2/3rds of electrical usage is wasted energy, it makes you think how can we improve on it? I can heat my home with electricity, but maybe oil (or something else) can do it much more efficiently. Just because it gets to my home in an efficient manner the end use of that product must be factored in.

You may be able to transmit electric power at 6% line losses, but if an electric vehicle (or any other device) generates additional waste in it's usage of electricity (inverter losses, waste heat, weight of batteries, etc.) that has to be factored in the overall picture.

I could also focus on the activity inside an engine piston and ignore the rest of the process and state that a certain portion of internal combustion is extremely efficient as well.

Electricity is less wasteful than petroleum, but not nearly as portable.

It is all very interesting though. The potential to do much more with the current amount of energy we currently produce is a way to stretch the coal, oil, solar, wind, is eye opening.

I agree completely...but that is also the same effect as saying a car get 5 MPG because I never get out of first and drive the thing as hard as possible. you are blaming the car for people's ignorance or lack of caring.

[bcmaui]

I agree completely...but that is also the same effect as saying a car get 5 MPG because I never get out of first and drive the thing as hard as possible. you are blaming the car for people's ignorance or lack of caring.

Some of it is how it is user, but some of it is also the device. Other than dimming (and reducing the useful output) there is little the user of an incandescent light bulb can effect it's wastefulness as it is used no matter how much or little I care. But if I have to spend $100 on an LED light to replace my $2 incandescent bulb and electricity is really inexpensive, you are encourged to waste electricity.

Don't get me wrong, I like electricity. I am also interested it how it can do the same work with less waste and it appears in the overall picture we can significantly improve on this and it's over all waste energy is close to petroleum according to the Lawerence Livermore Lab study.