I came across this and was wanting some input....

[the lizard king]

About a month or so ago I discovered this:

http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/

After reading the entire thread about it in "homebrew.com" it seems the creator has taken bits and peices from Palmer and this other guy named Kai. It appears however to almost contradict palmers RA sheet, which I pretty much thought was the bible of mash ph. I fully understand RA really is not all there is that has to do with mash ph. I have used it a few times to make additions. By tesing with those pesty test strips it appears I end up in the right range. I have not gotten around to calibrating my meter as of yet, so I am not sure how accurate it will be according to that.

I am really knew to this water addition thing, and was wondering if anyone else had any expierence with it.

[stadelman]

I'm not an expert by any means, but I do correct my water.

I've heard Kai on some podcasts and he comes off as very knowledgable. If I understand it correctly, Kai figured out that one of the water salts (can't remember which one) is not as effective as it should be. I think that Palmer made a correction in his spreadsheet based on this, but I don't know that it was a major correction. I got the impression Palmer is still looking into it.

I believe the water salt in question was used to add alkalinity. I typically don't need to do that, so I haven't worried about it.

For what it's worth. I think Kai's work is trustworthy and from experience Palmer's spreadsheet works for me.

I got a better (not great) handle on this subject by listening and re-listening to Palmer's water show on Basic Brewing Radio.

[the lizard king]

I will have to check that pod cast out. I have used that calc 3 times but have only tasted one beer from it I would have to say it turned out pretty good. but Mash ph and water additions is an overall confusing subject.

[ajdelange]

Palmer's spreadsheet was one of the first and as is the case with many pioneering efforts it has some serious flaws. Most significant among these is that it is based (or to be more correct, most people interpret it as being based) on a relationship between color and a "required" residual alkalinity in the brewing water. There is a correlation but it is not strong enough to be used as a basis for designing a beer. In addition to indicating absurdly high RA the spreadsheet then miscalculates the alkalinity from chalk resulting in recommending addition of twice the amounr really required to reach that RA. The consequence is that people blindly follow the spreadsheets guidance (or again what they think is its guidance) and dump inordinate amounts of chalk into their brewing water or mash tuns. This has the effect of raising the pH of the mash beyond the pH where the enzymes can work effectively. There is a little good news in that chalk (calcium carbonate) dissolves slowly at mash pH. Kai concluded that only half of it reacts. Had he waited longer he would have concluded that more of it does. The end result is that a quadruple dose of chalk acts more like a double dose over the length of a normal mash. Undissolved chalk that makes it through the sparge into the kettle and fermenter will continue to hold pH high throughout the boil and fermentation. I've had people that have made dark beers following the add a lot of carbonate school tell me that the resulting beers tasted chalky.

The EZ calculator backs off on the color/water correlation and so give more accurate mash pH predictions as does the Bru'n water calculator. But neither is perfect. In order for carbonate to be modeled correctly is that a spreadsheet asks for information about pre and post treatment water pH. These don't. Even if they did there are so many variables in the malts that really tight prediction is, IMO, not possible. This does not mean that the spreadsheets cannot be extremely useful as learning and planning tools. Just don't rely on them for accurate pH prediction. Get a pH meter and learn how to use it.

One of the major tenets of brewing is that you should never add alkali (calcium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, calcium hydroxide...) to mash or water unless a check of the mash with a pH meter (strips are not reliable) indicates that it is necessary. It seldom is except with very dark beers. It is much more likely that acid in some form will be needed.

[stadelman]

Great info... Thanks AJ!

[dmtaylor]

+1. Thanks AJ. Seems to me you are right on the money. I agree that it's almost never necessary to add any sort of a base to increase pH. I once added sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in the recommended amount to increase pH in a dark beer, and the final beer ended up tasting like...... baking soda! Go figure. I believe I had to dump that batch. I won't be trying that ever again. Or if I do, it will be just a pixie dust amount, and not a teaspoon or whatever they recommend.

[the lizard king]

Well after posting this in numerous forums I am glad I actually got a bit of feed back. I was getting confused between the 2. However it seems that the calculator kind of points you in the right direction. Thanks alot. and Pary on!!!