Why not just freeze starter wort in quart freezer bags?

Doug

You can freeze wort in bags, I did just that for a long time and might even still have a couple of "bricks" of wort under the hops. Bad part is you still have to boil and chill and that takes time compared to opening a jar and dumping it in.

botulism = scary shit huh?

As long as I am not trying to can unfermented wort, or anything like that... botulism isn't really a threat in the avg. brew process... correct?

Never heard much about this, so I did a touch of research just now, and It sounds like it can produce somes pretty narsty neurotoxins. Not something I would F with.

So is there any consensus about this?

Will freezing wort prevent botulism?

I tried the pressure cooker and was SCARED of it. I read instructions and let steam out for 10 minutes before closing the blowoff and saw the pressure go up. And up. It SEEMED to pffft pffft every few seconds from the regulator (I could hear it but couldn't confirm where it was coming from) but it hit 240, then 253. The start of the danger range seemed to be at 270. So at about 260 I cracked the blowoff but made it maintain that for 10 minutes.

I didn't try it with wort yet. Trying to figure out if it's even worth getting the bell jars.

By the way, White Labs vials turn opaque white after sterilization. Just saying....

You won't get activity from botulism in frozen wort, but it is not sanitary. It will still need to be boiled.

When you hit 250 on the pressure cooker, you're going to get pfft'ing. It should be rhythmic and constant, but low key.

When you come up to 15 psi, you should back way off on the heat, just enough to maintain it right there. As long as you do that, a pressure cooker is safe as kittens.

As safe as 15lb., 60 year old aluminum kittens...


Thanks for the answer!!!

You've never met my 23 lb cat and his 16 lb sister. So, yup.. safe as those kittens at least!

keep in mind though, that when you can wort you are aiming to kill the botulinum microbes and prevent them from creating the toxin that bug mentioned. so if you kill them from the get go when you reach in later on to make a starter from your canned wort they will be sterile/ free of toxins.

One interesting note, the toxin botulin deactivates snare proteins which are essential to muscle contractions if I remember correctly. The Snare protein actually catches/snares its receptor.

I'm not a botulism expert, but I am a microbiologist. Bug is correct on all points, but he didn't mention one thing that's causing the confusion.

Botulism is an obligate anaerobe (= needs zero oxygen to live). Therefore, there are possibly botulism spores in your wort, and they will survive the boiling process during brewing, but because you are oxygenating and then fermenting the wort (thus raising the alcohol and lowering the pH), they will never become a problem in beer.

The problem comes when you do not ferment right away and can the wort. When you can wort, you are essentially creating an anaerobic (zero oxygen) environment, and so if you do not get the temperature to 250 F, the spores survive your heat treatment, and then have a nutrient rich, anaerobic environment (= perfect for them, deadly for us). Because you are not fermenting this wort right away, the bacteria are not inhibited by alcohol or pH, and so can grow and produce toxins in the wort, which you will not be able to get rid of, no matter what the downstream treatment.

The guidelines for canning are based on botulism (the bacteria are deadly and nearly undetectable by smell or visually, and so are the biggest threat to those that can foods). Acidic foods like pickles, tomato sauce, etc. are safe with boiling water bath treatment because the acidic pH will do the work that heat won't and inhibit the spores from growing. Non-acidic foods like vegetables or wort must be pressure cooked in order to be safe (must kill the spores). I'm not sure of the pH cutoff, but for safeties sake, I wouldn't can any wort (or food, for that matter) without reaching a 250 F temp during the canning process.

D'oh! I could have saved a lot of typing by just linking to Wikipedia. The pH cutoff for food products for boiling vs pressure cooking is 4.6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botulism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canning

There's an easy way to tell if your food poisoning is botulism or not.
Quick onset, cramping liquid out of both ends, want to die = not botulism
Slow onset, paralysis and death = botulism