Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:33 pm

3G_ wrote:(snippage)
If i mount the temp probe at the sparge arm i would get the temp correct there but i am worried about denaturing the enzimes in the HE.


You will not denature enzymes in the wort from passing it through the HE coil. The heat gained by the pass through the coil is in turn passed in to the mash in a matter of a couple of seconds.

In general, for a TYPICAL HERMS and mash, the best placement of the sensor is either in the mash, near the FB/manifold, or at the MLT wort OUTLET. For larger mash tuns, like 125+ quart coolers, you can add a second sensor to the Ranco ETC (see wiring in operating instructions) to get an average mash temp. Placing it at the wort return will lead to very long ramp times. Note that I specified TYPICAL HERMS setups, with a fixed HLT setpoint, in which the controller swithes the pump or valves. There are designs in which the HLT temp is the controlled variable, in which case the wort return may make sense.

The keys to efficient heat exchange and being able to ramp up in a reasonable amount of time are delta T and flow rate. Assuming equal flow rates, the control scheme using a higher delta T (i.e. higher HL temp) will have shorter ramp times. I run my HL at 190 F until halfway through the ramp up to mash out. Then I lower the setpoint to sparge temp (170), and top off HLT with a small amount cold water if needed to get down to it.
New here, nothing to put in sig yet.
User avatar
Brewgyver
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:36 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:52 pm

I have a RIM's system and have my temp probe in the wort inlet inside the mash tun, I also did a little experment and tried a thermowell at the mash tun wort outlet and found the temp. differential to be about 1 deg F but was a little slower to react than in the hot wort outlet. I also set my love controller temp differential to be 1 deg.
BN Army corporal, southern command Louisiana
I am not afraid to go fast, it's the crashing and burning that sucks
User avatar
Imakewort
 
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:28 pm

Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:18 am

aleguy wrote:You might want to take a look at these.
http://auberins.com/index.php?main_page ... ucts_id=96

Thanks for the link! Pretty good prices.
User avatar
BrewTa2
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3454
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:46 am
Location: Hannibal, MO

Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:32 am

I do my setup a bit different. When I was designing my system I looked at what was out there and picked some key pieces of hardware I like to meet my requirements. I stole my basic heat exchanging system from BaltoBrewer. I then sat down with my requirements and equipment and did a requirements breakdown and a process analysis. Yeah, I'm an engineer with a lot of test and systems experience :mrgreen: .

Anyway. It's all about the thermal mass. As long as you recirculation is constant, and your heat losses are constant(they should be) you do not need the extra equipment to monitor and control multiple thermal masses. Most setups I have seen have a controller on the mash and a controller on the HLT. This is overkill. As long as you know you heat losses all you need to do is control the temp of your HLT. Of course monitoring your mash tun is always a good idea, but a thermometer is a lot cheaper than a controller and it can be placed in the Mash, which is really where you want your temperature to be monitored.

Think of it like this, I'll use mine as an example but it works for a setup with a coil inside the HLT. I use a Chillus Convolutus for all my heat exchanging(heating and cooling). My HLT circulates water thru the outer coil of the CC. My MT/BK circulate thru the inner coil of the CC. During the mash I am constantly circulating HLT and MT. My heat loss from the surface of the CC, the surface of the kettles, the hoses, the pumps, etc. is constant during this process. So essentially I have coupled my two thermal masses(HLT and MT) via the CC. SO if I control the temp of my HLT to be constant the temp of the MT remains constant. An added bonus is that the response time of the heat exchange in the CC is not instant and compensates well for spikes in the HLT temps from my monster jet burners. This works the same with a copper coil heat exchanger inside the HLT.

I can do rests, mash out, and control my mash temps very well. All with one Love controller. Having more than one is overkill, and unnecessary. If you like that fine, I know I like overkill and will be adding a Love temp probe soon, but you don't need it. I like this setup cause it is easy and simple, and works really well.
Temecula Valley Homebrewers Association
If life gives you lemons, throw them at the stupid people.

brewblog
PICS
fastdogbrewing
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:18 pm

Does anybody know what pieces you need to set up the temp probe at the output of the mash tun, I know I would need a T fitting, but what other pieces are needed to create one like lonnie has on his build(on the cover)
swifty
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 11:54 am

Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:27 pm

Temecula Valley Homebrewers Association
If life gives you lemons, throw them at the stupid people.

brewblog
PICS
fastdogbrewing
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:08 pm



FYI, the guy who runs this site and makes these products, Derrin, is a friend of mine and member of my brewclub. He is a stand up guy and is making some kick ass products. The probe ends are awesome! I saw a few of them before he started selling them, very clean and highly polished.
"I feel sorry for those who don't drink because when they get up in the morning that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
— Frank Sinatra
User avatar
Lars
 
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:04 pm
Location: Behind the Orange Curtain

Re: HERMS temp probe placement? Help!

Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:10 am

fastdogbrewing wrote:As long as you recirculation is constant, and your heat losses are constant(they should be) you do not need the extra equipment to monitor and control multiple thermal masses.
... SO if I control the temp of my HLT to be constant the temp of the MT remains constant. An added bonus is that the response time of the heat exchange in the CC is not instant and compensates well for spikes in the HLT temps from my monster jet burners.
... All with one Love controller. Having more than one is overkill, and unnecessary. If you like that fine, I know I like overkill and will be adding a Love temp probe soon, but you don't need it. I like this setup cause it is easy and simple, and works really well.

1. I am not constantly recirculating. In fact, during my 60 minute mash in a cooler, the temperature barely drops a degree, if that. So to me it seems like overkill, and unnecessary, to constantly recirculate.
2. My HLT heater is a 1000 W bucket heater, which does not allow quick heating. In fact, for my last brew I did what someone else around here mentioned. Before mashing out, I got my HLT to 180 F and let it fall to 170 while the mash temperature rose. Before that I had a problem just getting the mash up to 168.
So I'm going to use two controllers.
Aging: Gotlandsdrickå, Baltic Porter in Bourbon barrel, Olde Ale #2 in whiskey barrel
On Draft: Nothing. Building a walk-in cooler right now.
User avatar
foomench
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:53 pm
Location: Longmont, CO

PreviousNext

Return to Brewing Sculptures

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

A BIT ABOUT US

The Brewing Network is a multimedia resource for brewers and beer lovers. Since 2005, we have been the leader in craft beer entertainment and information with live beer radio, podcasts, video, events and more.