Version 2.0 of Palmer's Residual Alkalinity Spreadsheets

[3G_]

Sorry, my mistake. I had the additions based on 20litres of Mash water not the 25 required for this recipe.

I may be mistaken, i plan on using Reverse Osmosis water so I assumed (perhaps wrongly) it will have a ph of 7 and no salts in it.

I am not planing on Imitating the water of Munich, more so correct pH and chloride/sulfate ratios.

Thank you for the detailed response, sorry for the mistaken mash liquor volume.

[ajdelange]

RO water (like distilled water) generally has a pH noticeably less than 7 because of dissolved CO2 from the air. With small bicarbonate content to buffer against it even the tiny amounts of CO2 which dissolve from the air will lower pH quite a bit. My RO water is running 5.86 at the moment. But this doesn't matter. The only reason we care about pH in water is because it controls the relative distribution of carbonic, bicarbonate and carbonate. With only small amounts of those it doesn't much matter how they are distributed.

Munich water is quite interesting in that if you decarbonate it there just isn't much left. As noted before chloride runs about 2 - 8 ppm and sulfate about 10. Sodium is also extremely low at around 2 ppm. This is how Munich brewers were able to make Helles - just get the carbonate out. That said a good approach to brewing Dunkles might be to blend some of your tap water with the RO to try to get those low levels - or if you source water is minerally enough just the RO water by itself might have residual content at or near those levels. Then design your grist with the dark malt levels you want and use calcium carbonate in the mash tun to control the pH. That way the calcium from the calcium carbonate will stay with the beer into the kettle and fermenter. Conversely if you synthesized Munich water by dissolving the calcium carbonate in it you would have to dough in cold (as lager brewers do) to prevent all the calcium carbonate from precipitating back out in the HLT.

[Gottbeer1]

Just stumbled onto the spreadsheet and this post today. Very timely.

I'm fairly new to all grain brewing and lately I've been paying more attention to my mash pH and water chemistry, and the spreadsheet looks like it is going to be very handy. Typically all the grains are mashed together and with my water supply I usually add a bit of baking soda to my mash water to raise the alkalinity when brewing dark beers. But now I'm thinking of tackling "The Other Michael Jackson (Black Witbier)" in the current issue of Brew Your Own, a dark wheat beer, and this recipe calls for mashing just the pils malt, wheat (flaked), and oats (flaked) and not adding the dark specialty grains until recirculation and sparge (in a sense it seems like the dark grains are being steeped in the lauter tun). So my question is, for this particular beer should I be adjusting my brewing water to target just the light grains in the mash and essentially ignore the late addition of the dark grains? (I also presume there isn't much reason to mess with the sparge water). I appreciate any feedback.

I also have a question about the spreadsheet itself regarding acid additions to the mash water. For lactic acid the spreadsheet results agree with the results I get if I do the calculations by hand using the method in John Palmer’s book (p. 162). But for HCL, the spreadsheet seems to indicate that I need to add more HCL than if I do the calcs by hand. For example, using the example in Palmer’s book: want to reduce residual alkalinity by 225 ppm in 4 gallons – from the book add 4.5 ml of 37% HCL, but the spreadsheet indicates 5.9 ml of 37% HCL. Has anyone else noticed this?

Dave

[ajdelange]

Before answering your questions we need to know something about your water in particular its pH, alkalinity, calcium and magnesium concentrations (but it's always best to have the other ions too). If your water is typical of what comes out of the tap in most places in the US the only treatment it typically needs is a campden tablet to eliminate chloramine. As the major object of water treatment is control of mash pH then yes, adjust, if necessary, to set mash pH which means adjust to the grains which you are mashing (i.e. ignore the dark grains in this case).

With respect to reducing residual alkalinity by adding acid: RA = 50*(alkalinity - ([Ca] + [Mg]/2)/3.5) where alkalinity, [Ca] and [Mg] are all in mEq/L. Thus, you can reduce RA by 225 by adding 225/50 = 4.5 mEq of acid (neutralizes alkalinity) to each liter of water. Hydrochloric acid is fully dissociated at any pH you will meet in breweing. Thus 4.5 mEq corresponds to 4.5 mmol. 23 Be' HCl (38%) contains 12.39 mmol/mL and 4 gal is 15.14L so you will need 4.5*15.14/12.39=5.5 mL.

To a first approximation lactic acid can be considered fully dissociated at mash tun pH. It has a molecular weight of 90.08 so you need 4.5*90.08 = 405 mg/L or a total of 15.14 times this, 6.137 grams, to treat 4 gallons. If you have 88% by weight acid (the strength most commonly sold, you will need 6.137/0.88 = 6.97 grams. 88% lactic acid has a density of 1.2060 so you will require 6.97/1.206 = 5.8 mL. There is a complication here in that the lactate ion actually contributes to alkalinity and thus residual alkalinity. To lower the formal RA by 225 thus requires some extra acid. This is not something you probably need to worry about at this point.

[Gottbeer1]

Ajdelange

Thanks for the quick reply and for confirming my thinking that I want to set the pH for just the grains being mashed (i.e., ignore the dark grains). According to my water report my water is:

Ca: 36 ppm
Mg: 17 ppm
Alkalinity (as CaCO3): 109 ppm
Na: 80 ppm
Chloride: 90 ppm
Sulfate: 166 ppm
The measured pH is ~7.4 Goes through a carbon filter so no chlorine.

So, as I understand it, it’s a bit low in calcium and a bit high in sulfate. Because I’m mashing just the light grains (SRM 3-4), I’m thinking that I want a mash water residual alkalinity of maybe -50 ppm. So, I’m thinking of adding some CaCl to raise the calcium levels a bit and to add some chloride to balance the sulfate (will also drop pH some), and then maybe drop the pH a bit more with a small acid addition (lactic acid seems to be the most available; interestingly enough the guys at my local brew shop claim they’ve never heard of using lactic acid to lower mash pH). But I haven’t completely thought it through and this is largely new to me (maybe I'm getting too "smart" for my own good).

In any case it sounds like John Palmer’s value of 15 mEq/L for 37% HCl in his book is a bit high compared to the value of 12.39 you used (and have found a 2nd source for), and that he is using a lower value in his spreadsheet, thus the higher HCl volume requirement from the spreadsheet than from the book. I have to admit I’m not sure what “23 Be’ HCL” means (I’ll probably kick myself when I figure it out), but at least your examples make sense to me (need to crack those old chemistry books). Also sounds like HCl may be better to use than lactic acid, but not sure where to get the HCl (home brew shop only sells lactic and others).

So much to learn . . . but I need to get a batch going. I’m starting to think more about making beer than actually brewing . . . not good. At least it’s fun . . .

Thanks for all your help. I’ll keep exploring the forums.

Dave

[ajdelange]

Gottbeer1

The water profile you report is a little problematical in that the anion charges and cation charges don't quite balance. Either cations (Ca++, Mg++...) are under reported or cations (SO4--. Cl-..._ are over reported (or both) so we have to be a little careful about taking any conclusions drawn as gospel truth. The imbalance is only about 10% so in general conclusions should be valid.

The main problem with this water in brewing a beer with only wheat and pils is going to be its relatively high Residual Alkalinity which is at 73 ppm as CaCO3. The mash pH is likely to be 0.12 units higher than it would be with distilled water and thus probably about 5.87 which is definitely higher than you would probably like. One solution to this would be to add more calcium in order to get the RA down. To reduce it to 0 you would have to add 380 mg/L of CaCl2.2H20 which would raise your chloride to 272 mg/L which seems an awful lot to me but if you have been following the "Crappy Water" thread you will know that my correspondent in the U.K. disagrees strongly. The point being that you must find out what works for you and what you like so this is one option. I do not mention gypsum because your sulfate is already quite high - probably already at the level where you may not like what it does to your hops bitterness and adding more sulfate would only exacerbate this. Technically, though, you could add gypsum instead of calcium chloride or some of each.

Another option is to dilute the water with some DI or RO water. This will reduce everything by close to the dilution factor e.g adding 1 liter of DI water to each liter of the tap water would bring RA down to 38 ppm as CaCO3 and the sulfate down to 83 mg/K but it will also bring calcium to 18 mg/L. 3:1 dilution would get you an RA of 20 with sulfate at 41 and calcium at 9. Were you to takle this approach you would probably want to supplement with some calcium chloride say 150 mg/L which would knock the RA back to 13 and boost your calcium to 19 mg/L while keeping the chloride respectable at 40 mg/L. This is probably what I would do mostly because of the sulfates. Wheat beers are not among those where you want sulfate accentuated hops.

Another option is, as you mentioned, the addition of acid. The residual alkalinity is 73/50 = about 1.5 mval/L and so this is about how much acid you would need to add per litre of water being treated. "23 Be' " HCl means that the specific gravity of the acid is 23 degrees on the Baume' scale and this (38% w/w) is a commonly sold strength. As noted yesterday it is 12.39 N (contains 12.39 mval per litre) and that fact makes it easy to calculate how much acid to add. In general I do not advocate the use of strong acids by inexperienced brewers because they can be nasty. Yes, I know that anyone can buy 23 Be' HCl at the nearest hardware store but I am not going to be the guy that tells you it should go in your beer. Handling considerations aside anything that goes down your throat ought to be food grade and hardware store HCl definitely isn't. Also from the "Crappy Beer" thread: you will see reference to a product called CRS which is a blend (apparently) of sulfuric and hydrochloric acids presumably as it is sold to brewers, of food grade (FCC) or the UK equivalent. It isn't available over here AFAIK. I have no other suggestions as to where to obtain FCC HCl.

The example with lactic from yesterday should let you calculate how many mL of that acid you would need to treat you water to the extent of 1.5 mval of lactic per L. An interesting source of lactic acid is "acidulated malt" (also called "sauermalz" and "proteolytmalz") which is malt that has been wetted, sprayed with L. delbruckii and incubated for a time. It is advertised as lowering mash pH 0.1 point for each percent of it in the grist. I have begun to use this approach and really like the results I have gotten so far.

In either case the amount of acid calculated will be approximate. You should meaure out 30% more than you calculate and then add it in increments monitoring mash pH as you go. Start by adding about half what you calculated and then add increments of 10% or so. Same is true with the proteolyt malz. Stand by to grind and add some more of it if you need to.

The final option is perhaps the simplest: get the acid from the dark malt/barley you are holding for the end. Add it, or some of it, early on to see if there is enough acid in it to overcome the water's alkalinity and let mash pH go where it should. A test mash using say 5% of the total grist should serve here. If the mash pH comes out too high in the test mash then there simply isn't enough acid in the dark malt or there is too much RA in the water. In such a case you must reduce the RA by one of or a combination of the methods described above.

[Gottbeer1]

AJ

Thanks so much for all your advice. It’s really a big help. I am concerned about the sulfate and have considered dilution. You’re exactly right . . . I just wasn’t all that happy with the bitterness of my last amber, and my hopping rate wasn’t all that high. I guess I’ll think about that a bit more seriously. Without my own testing, I have to trust that the City water report (San Diego) is reporting the ion concentrations correctly, but it didn’t occur to me to check the balance of the values in the report. Great suggestion. I’ll have to take a look at some of the water reports from other years (I just took the most recent). I too am a bit concerned about the low Ca levels. That’s why I was considering adding both CaCl and acid to get the alkalinity down. Now maybe I’ll think about dilution, CaCl, AND acid. Is there a minimum value for Ca or Mg I should be trying to stay above (I’ve read 50 ppm for Ca and 10 ppm for Mg, but don’t know how “strict” that is)?

I definitely wouldn’t buy acid from the hardware store (never even considered it) and have started to look for food grade HCl, but no luck so far. I’m not overly concerned about handling the acid myself. Not that I couldn’t make a mistake, but my degree actually is in Chemical Engineering and have a fair amount of lab experience, although I haven’t worked in the field for about 15 years so I’m a bit rusty (that’s also why this is so much fun – I need to dig out those gloves, goggles, and pipets! – that’s also why I should remember things like Baume’ scale). I can easily get food grade lactic acid from my local brew shop. My only concern there is how much is too much in terms of souring my beer (I am hoping that ~0.5 ml of 88% per gallon isn’t too bad)? Since this is a wit beer, a little lactic seems appropriate, but is there a rule of thumb for how much lactic acid can be added before you really start altering the flavor?

I also wasn’t planning on gypsum because of the sulfate. I haven’t been following the “Crappy Water” thread but will definitely take a look. In any case I appreciate all your suggestions (I’ll also have to look into the proteolytmalz). You’ve given me a lot to think about and I think I’m just going to have to try something this next batch and see how things turn out. This will be the first time I’ve really tried to alter my water chemistry any, so just about anything will probably be an improvement.

By the way, I’ve started reading your articles on http://www.wetnewf.org/. Good stuff (although the site seems to be down today). Probably will find a lot of the answers when I get through it all.

Thanks

[ajdelange]

Gotbeer1

I can't answer the question about how much lactic acid is too much because that depends on your personal preference and how sensitive your palate is to lactate. I have begun using proteolytmalz in my brewing and have yet to have a complaint that the beer is too "lactic". I should also mention that I just love lactic flavor - Berliner Weisse, gueze etc are some of my big favorites. I can remember being given a "turned" pint is a UK pub. I gave it back more because I knew I was expected to than because I didn't like it.

What you might want to try is taking a glass of nominal strength beer and then adding lactic acid dropwize until you reach taste threshold (I'd get some friends, spouse etc. involved) and then scale that up to brewing volume. Remember that German and Czech brewers do this commonly with "sauergut" (an extract from proteolytmalz or they use the proteolytmalz directly) and sub or near threshold lactate may even be a part of the sensory profiles of these beers.

Don't give up on the website. My ISP does not allow websites and so blocks port 80 and uses dynamic IP addressing to discourage them. Unsurprisingly there is a small industry out that that provides workarounds but all the workarounds have to be working. Then there is always the question of bandwidth not to mention that the "server" is an old Mac Mini whose main job is to collect temperature data from my fermenters. Try again and avoid the evening (EDT) hours. I really should bite the bullet and host it somewhere else but I'm too cheap.