Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Thu May 24, 2012 9:15 pm

Thirsty Boy wrote:
virtualpaul wrote:I read most of this very long post and learned/laughed...

I am wondering if a large stainless steel filter (of ? microns) could solve a lot of the sediment passing through issue?

I was thinking of a large pot in stainless steel with filters only on the side (starting at 1-2 inches) so that the sediment could stay at the bottom and the rest could mix freely?


Nah, doesn't really work. If the filter, be it metal or cloth, is fine enough to give you good wort clarity, its fine enough to clog very quickly indeed. It works OK, if you have multiple hours spare to stand around and wait for the bag to drain. Earlier in the thread someone started out using a very tight weave polyester cloth - clear wort, very long drain time.

Having the sides a "loose" mesh and the bottom a tight one is a nice thought to try and beat it, but really, your solids and stuff are all through the wort, that solution may well be a little "better", but I seriously doubt it would give people who are nervous about cloudy wort a result they would be happy with. worth a try, but expensive if it ends up not doing the job.

Its just not really a problem though, I know people assume its "flour" but its not, its mostly protein. Just bog standard break material that would normally be trapped in the grain bed of a mash tun. Do your boil and leave it in the kettle with the rest of the muck. You'll still be getting total efficiency as good or better than the average batch sparger.....

I've tried quite a few "variations" of the simple BIAB method over the years - In my experience, all of them make your life harder & none of them make your beer better.

edit - I just realised that you are (i think) talking about a mesh filter for the post boil wort rather than a replacement for the bag. That would work... but not really any better than say some of the current wort filters out there like the hop stopper (which btw I can see no reason would not work as well in a BIAB system as any other) and seems a lot more expensive and intrusive an option. At any rate - as in any other system you can just do a whirlpool. It all depends on just how much you begrudge the extra litre or two of wort that will cost you vs the best you will be able to do.


Your first assumption was correct. I am trying to use a stainless steel filter (like a kettle with tiny holes within the kettle). But the goal was not to make the beer clearer. I am just trying to prevent the grain hulls to get into the wort because I read that boiling grain hulls gives out tannins and phenols which adds an astringent taste in the beer.

But I am not sure what microns I would use for the holes. I don't want to loose the good stuff! :aaron
virtualpaul
 
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Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Fri May 25, 2012 6:24 am

virtualpaul wrote:
Thirsty Boy wrote:
virtualpaul wrote:I read most of this very long post and learned/laughed...

I am wondering if a large stainless steel filter (of ? microns) could solve a lot of the sediment passing through issue?

I was thinking of a large pot in stainless steel with filters only on the side (starting at 1-2 inches) so that the sediment could stay at the bottom and the rest could mix freely?


Nah, doesn't really work. If the filter, be it metal or cloth, is fine enough to give you good wort clarity, its fine enough to clog very quickly indeed. It works OK, if you have multiple hours spare to stand around and wait for the bag to drain. Earlier in the thread someone started out using a very tight weave polyester cloth - clear wort, very long drain time.

Having the sides a "loose" mesh and the bottom a tight one is a nice thought to try and beat it, but really, your solids and stuff are all through the wort, that solution may well be a little "better", but I seriously doubt it would give people who are nervous about cloudy wort a result they would be happy with. worth a try, but expensive if it ends up not doing the job.

Its just not really a problem though, I know people assume its "flour" but its not, its mostly protein. Just bog standard break material that would normally be trapped in the grain bed of a mash tun. Do your boil and leave it in the kettle with the rest of the muck. You'll still be getting total efficiency as good or better than the average batch sparger.....

I've tried quite a few "variations" of the simple BIAB method over the years - In my experience, all of them make your life harder & none of them make your beer better.

edit - I just realised that you are (i think) talking about a mesh filter for the post boil wort rather than a replacement for the bag. That would work... but not really any better than say some of the current wort filters out there like the hop stopper (which btw I can see no reason would not work as well in a BIAB system as any other) and seems a lot more expensive and intrusive an option. At any rate - as in any other system you can just do a whirlpool. It all depends on just how much you begrudge the extra litre or two of wort that will cost you vs the best you will be able to do.


Your first assumption was correct. I am trying to use a stainless steel filter (like a kettle with tiny holes within the kettle). But the goal was not to make the beer clearer. I am just trying to prevent the grain hulls to get into the wort because I read that boiling grain hulls gives out tannins and phenols which adds an astringent taste in the beer.

But I am not sure what microns I would use for the holes. I don't want to loose the good stuff! :aaron


OK, stainless mesh as a direct replacement for the bag. Been done before, works just fine. You want the holes in the mesh to be around about the same as in the bags.... basically the bags are already around the perfect diameter for the job. Of you go finer... your wort will be a little clearer.... but you pay with the "bag" taking a longer time to drain, and now because its made of steel, you cant give it a loving squeeze to speed things along.

Look at it in this way, as again I tell you the extra murkiness of a biab brew is not an issue.

5kg grain bill for you brew. Normally you would lose about 5L of liquid trapped in the spent grain, you would boil and lose perhaps 2L of wort to trub and goop in the bottom of the pot. Total - 7L left behind that you couldn't use, nice clear wort into your fermenter.

Same brew done BIAB - 5kg grain. This time you only lose 2.5L trapped in the spent grain.... but you get extra goop in the kettle and you need to leave behind an extra 1-2L for clear wort..... looks to me like you get 1/2-1 litre of extra wort for your troubles. a litre extra in a 20batch, is a 5% improvement in efficiency.

The extra turbid pre-boil wort from a BIAB mash, is something that I dont even consider to be one of the slightly arguable aspects. Its just not an issue at all.

Make a stainless mesh jiggerlaky if you feel like it - but you'll be hard pressed to do it in a way that actually makes your day easier, and I dont think it will make your beer any better at all.

Only one way to prove me wrong though.... why not give it a shot.
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Thirsty Boy
 
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Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Wed May 30, 2012 10:54 pm

I had a terribly stuck mash the first time I made a pumpkin Beer and have never been game to try it again (an 11 hour brew day will do that to you.) This looks like it will be a neat solution.

Does anyone have experience using the still spirits turbo 500 boiler for BIAB? It's 30 litres and has an 1800w (240v) element. I was hoping to get 19 litres out of it with a 4.5kg grain bill and about a kilo of pumpkin.

possible?
Random_Clown
 
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Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Thu May 31, 2012 3:28 pm

Random_Clown wrote:I had a terribly stuck mash the first time I made a pumpkin Beer and have never been game to try it again (an 11 hour brew day will do that to you.) This looks like it will be a neat solution.

Does anyone have experience using the still spirits turbo 500 boiler for BIAB? It's 30 litres and has an 1800w (240v) element. I was hoping to get 19 litres out of it with a 4.5kg grain bill and about a kilo of pumpkin.

possible?



Hard to get a rolling boil with only 1800W's. My HLT has a 4500W element for just 175F max temps, let alone 212F
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Kbar
 
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Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Thu May 31, 2012 9:11 pm

Kbar wrote:
Hard to get a rolling boil with only 1800W's. My HLT has a 4500W element for just 175F max temps, let alone 212F


Thanks,

That was my main concern. It kinda defeats the purpose, having to install another element in what is essentially an expensive urn.
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Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:39 am

30L is distinctly less than an ideal size for BIAB anyway. Oh sure, you can make it work in a pot that size if you try, smaller even - But to get the full benefit of the technique, I would suggest 40L (10G) as a minimum size for single batches.

Most people BIAB brewing in urns are using the 40L ones because thats pretty much as big as you can buy them.... but if they came in 50 or 60L, thats what I'd tell you to get.

Also, as Kbar said, 1800W is pretty low. I manage just fine with 2400W and I know people also get by on 2000W, but i reckon 1800W might be dropping it a step too far.

TB

btw - a really sticky mash will goo up even a BIAB bag. I've done a 100% Rye beer and it was so gooey and slimy that it sealed the bag up and basically made it waterproof. I hauled it out anyway, hung it over the pot from a hook and waited.... nothin! Basically i ended up having to stand there and prod the bag constantly with a stick, this made waves in the liquid trapped inside, the waves "cleaned" off a small section of the bag and a little liquid came out. It went from sitting there, full, barely even dripping, to letting out a good 15L of wort in a few minutes.

A super low tech example of cross flow filtration.

So maybe something like a pumpkin mash would gum up the bag too... but you should be ale to get it going by jiggling the bag in a way that gets a standing wave going inside it. The beer i made would certainly have been impossible in a traditional mash tun.
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Thirsty Boy
 
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Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:21 am

We always brew with rice hulls. Big difference when it's needed; consistent process when it's not.
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kswbeer
 
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Re: How to go from Extract to AG for < $10.00

Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:21 am

I always brew with rice hulls in my mash tun brewing - for exactly the reasons you say.

But in theory, and in my experience - they shoudn't make any difference to a BIAB brew's lauterability.

Where a BIAB might possible go wrong in the lautering step, is at the actual interface between the mesh of the bag and the grain. If ther is a lot of very fine break, or flour like substance, that is big enough to clog the pores, or the pores are small enough to allow it, or where the wort is viscous enough that it "glues" smaller particles together. Then they can kind of seal up the surface of the bag. That can, in extreme circumstances, slow or stop a BIAB lauter. Its a problem shared by all systems that utilise seiving or surface filtration - of which BIAB is one.

Rice hulls are generally about keeping a grain bed as three dimensional as possible, which allows the grain bed to act as a depth filtration medium. If you dont have enough volume and depth, it stops working and clogs up. Rice hulls give you volume and depth.

They shoudn't really make much, or even any difference in a BIAB system....... but, do they? You say you use them all the time. In Biab? Have you has lautering issues in BIAB that you solved with rice hulls? I'd love to hear about your experiences with it, I teach brewing classes based around BIAB and I'm always looking for soemething that will make the experience more seamless and easy for the new brewer. Any insight you can offer would be much appreciated.

cheers

TB
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