Astringency or Something Else?

[BSBrewer]

Since switching to all grain about 5 months ago, I've brewed 5 batches (2 of the same recipe all from BCS) and all of them consistently exhibit a "harshness" that I haven't been able to diagnose. I wasn't having this issue prior to going all grain. The big process change I introduced at that point was switching from using distilled water (with the extract) to brewing with City of Austin water which is Ph 9.6 (water report linked - my tap water is the column labeled UWTP - Tap):

http://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Water/WaterQualityReports2015/WQS_1q2015.pdf

The beer isn't terrible, it's just off in a way that's too consistent to be a coincidence and I want it to be better. I have kept a couple of these beers in the keg for several months (sometimes in the 60's due to sharing space in my fermentation chamber) and the off flavor has remained consistent. For that reason, I'm pretty sure it's not a contamination issue (otherwise I would expect the off flavor to change in character or intensity).

I know a high mash Ph can cause problems with astringency, but I'm having trouble identifying whether what I'm tasting is actually astringency. Would a high mash Ph yield beer described as "harsh" or "thick"? I'm just having trouble identifying this with the "sucking on a teabag" description that's in all the literature (insert your teabag joke here) and so I'm not sure if I've found the culprit or if I should investigate other potential issues.

I know this stuff is really difficult to describe verbally, so I'll throw out several descriptors that either came from me or LHBS staff, my wife, and co-workers who I've had taste the beers:

- Harsh
- Thick; lingers on your tongue
- Intense flavor

My efficiency has always run a little high (high 70s or low 80s) and as my volume measurements became more repeatable and precise, this particular flavor has only seemed worse (e.g. averaging closer to the low 80s than high 70s). The one exception was the Traditional Bock recipe from BCS. That beer seemed to turn out pretty well, and the only real difference I could see was that the grain bill has more dark malts than the other recipes I've been brewing lately (American Amber and Martzen). That really started making me question Ph in the mash.

Process
My basic process is mashing at ~1.5qt/lb. I've done both batch and fly sparging, but use a 10G Igloo cooler so I typically do a single infusion for about an hour in the 149-154 range (depending on the recipe). I've been acidifying my sparge water with ~1.75ml of 88% lactic. I use Brewer's Friend to help with all the acid/salt calculations. I typically prefer the maltier styles, so I'll often put 1-3 grams of calcium chloride in as well to round out the flavor and give me a little calcium boost since our water is pretty low on calcium. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't seem like much.

After ensuring volumes and checking pre-boil gravity, I boil for 90 minutes, whirl floc and whirlpool chill with my immersion chiller. Then I check post-boil gravity and transfer to the fermentor for aeration and pitching. I pitch the calculated amount of liquid yeast from my starter, oxygenate with pure O2 through a 1/2 micron stone for 2 mins at 1/2lpm and typically see good activity within the first 12 hours. I temperature control the fermentation to completion and typically get somewhere in the middle of the listed range of attenuation for the variety of liquid yeast I'm using.

Other Things I've Tried
Last week I bought a better Milwaukee Ph meter from MoreBeer, as the erratic readings I've seen from my $30 cheapo meter don't give me a lot of confidence (even after calibrating it with solution).

I also brewed my last batch (BCS Angel Wings Maibock) by building the water from distilled instead of using the Austin water. It's still in the fermentor, so I don't yet know if that will make a big difference.

I haven't had a chance to use the new meter or carb and taste the new batch yet, but hopefully those things will tell me something. In the meantime, I also wanted to run this by you guys in case my results aren't totally conclusive. Overall I'm just hoping for some confirmation that I'm on the right track or some ideas about other factors to consider.

Thanks!

[brewinhard]

When you mentioned your local water had a pH of 9.6 (ridiculously high) I was going to mention that that could be your culprit. But since you said that you have been acidifying your water and treating it with appropriate salts (to hopefully reduce your mash and sparge pH) then I am not sure. Were you able to take appropriate mash pH measurements (in 5.2-5.6 range at room temps) with your pH meter successfully?

The only suggestion I can give you would be to do what you did with your maibock. Using RO or distilled water for your base and build from there with your appropriate salts to reach a proper mash pH based on your grain bill and color. Maybe someone else will chime in with some other ideas here.

In the meanwhile, please post back your results with your latest lager and let us know if you fixed the issue with the use of distilled water instead of your city water.

[BSBrewer]

Thanks for the reply! I have been acidifying sparge water, but not mash water. While the Ph of my water is crazy high, the alkalinity seems low to moderate (I think this is because they're doing some treatment -- you can see that the alkalinity drops a lot between source and tap).

Anyway, looking back, it seems that I totally missed the fact that I probably need to be adding acid to the mash for most of my beers (except maybe styles that contain a lot of dark malts). I'm going to review some of my water calculations through Brewer's Friend and see if I was mis-entering some info or otherwise just overlooking the target mash Ph that those grain bills and salt additions should have yielded.

Using the upgraded Ph meter I should now be able to check the mash Ph. However, with the 20 minutes it will take to let the mash Ph "settle" and cool/test a sample, I'd like to double-check my calculations and at least try to get this dialed in beforehand. Discovering that I need to massively adjust the mash Ph 1/3 of the way through my 1 hour mash probably wouldn't save the next beer either

[spiderwrangler]

That would be the place to start... if you're only acidifying your sparge, a lot of stuff has already happened during the mash.

[brewinhard]

You can just wait about 5 minutes into the mash prior to pulling a small sample (shot glass size) to cool. If you have not been acidifying the mash and unable to to get an appropriate mash pH for color from just salt additions then you definitely could be pulling some astringency from the grain as the pH rises slowly during the mashing process (which it does by about .1-.2 or so).

As far as I understand it, if you are going to sparge with distilled or RO water then you do not need to acidify your sparge water (providing you have treated it with your appropriate salts or at least add that sparge addition to the kettle) as the alkalinity will already be low and the water will quickly adjust closely to the pH of the mash as it mixes in.

[S. cerevisiae]

Your alkalinity is not low. My alkalinity is 119 ppm as CaCO3, and I have to add acid in addition to salts to get my mash pH down to 5.2 when brewing pale beer styles. You need to download a copy of Bru'n Water.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

[brewinhard]

Your alkalinity is not low. My alkalinity is 119 ppm as CaCO3, and I have to add acid in addition to salts to get my mash pH down to 5.2 when brewing pale beer styles. You need to download a copy of Bru'n Water.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Yes. I have been enjoying the ease of adjusting my beers with this too.

[BDawg]

Get someone with an experienced palate to taste it as well. They will be able to confirm what you are tasting.

Here's a list of folks sorted by state/city who can likely help:
http://www.bjcp.org/apps/reports/proctors.php

HTH-