Re: Sparge time vs. Efficiency

Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:07 am

i found the experiment Dave proposed interesting enough that I kicked it off yesterday. Its not a batch sparge/partigyle thing, but reasonably analagous.

I took from our lauter grant at work, a sample of wort just at the end of first worts. So the recirculation had happened, the wort had cleared up and all the underlet had been recycledback on top of the bed, just short of 100HL had been collected. No sparge added at this point. Wort strength was 17.6 plato. Then i took another sample when about 2/3rds of the wort had been collected (around 800HL) and the gravity had dropped to 5plato.

Took the samples home, diluted the strong sample down to 5plato and compared. About the same colour, and to be honest, about the same taste. But given that we are talking 5plato (1.020 ish) there really wasn't much flavour to work with in either sample. So - I added 1g of hops to the 400ml samples both at 5plato and boiled them down for 20mins, same beaker, same burner on the stove etc. Trimmed them back up to 200ml and cooled. So now we have a 10plato sample to work with that should have some more flavour to try and identify. Haven't tasted yet, they are sitting on the fridge clearing out.

Tonight I am going to take bigger (1.25L) samples. the wort i am taking will be a bit stronger and I will try to get the "weak" sample at about 8 plato so that without the boiling down step we have a more normal strength wort to work with. Still, roughly the same relative strengths you would find in a partigyle between the strong and weak worts (I think). The higher volume will give me a chance to throw some yeast at it and ferment in a temp controlled water bath. I'll dilute strong down to weak, give them a bit of a boil and ferment them. Then I'll take the beers to my HB club meeting and have them tasted.

I'll report back with my taste of the first samples and with the results from the "beers"

TB
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Thirsty Boy
 
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Re: Sparge time vs. Efficiency

Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:29 am

Enjoying the discussion and picking up on a lot of useful information. Thanks guys. Interested to see how the experimenting develops.
keelanfish
 
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Re: Sparge time vs. Efficiency

Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:51 am

Thirsty Boy, I might not always agree with you, but hot damn, I certainly respect your enthusiasm! I'm definitely very interested in the results of your experiment! I might just need to get off my duff and run something on my end here.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)
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dmtaylor
 
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Re: Sparge time vs. Efficiency

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:15 am

Thanks, I do try to back up the "opinionated bastard" factor with a reasonable dose of "but at least he checked..." I don't claim to be an agreeable type - but I like to be right. So I test things out, and if I discover I was wrong before... then from now on in, I like to be the "new" right instead (and will try to forget that I ever thought a different way)

Now - first cut results, if you can call them that.

Tastes of the somewhat concentrated worts with a bit of hopping.

a) Too much damn hopping, both worts ended up really quite bitter so whereas before I had to try and taste around the lack of flavour, now I was tasting around too much bitterness. Oh well, its only an initial run.

b) The worts were very very similar. If I had to state a difference, one was the teensiest bit more malty and smooth... seemingly self serving, it turns out that the one I thought was a little maltier was in fact the wort taken from later in the sparge. BUT - I wasn't tasting blind, and because its wor not beer after all, that maltiness I tasted could have been that the wort was a little sweeter - which goes with the notion of "less flavour, more sugar"

So I call it a push for this round. Withmore volume and more tasters (or at least someone to make it a blind tasting for me) I could have perhaps said something more definative... but with those things we might as well go all the way and make a beer.

So thats the next step - bigger samples, make actual beer. I didn't get a chance last night, but I will see if I can arrange it for next week. I'll ferment with something english and fast so we dont have to wait too long.

TB
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Thirsty Boy
 
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Re: Sparge time vs. Efficiency

Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:09 am

Thirsty Boy wrote:Thanks, I do try to back up the "opinionated bastard" factor with a reasonable dose of "but at least he checked..." I don't claim to be an agreeable type - but I like to be right. So I test things out, and if I discover I was wrong before... then from now on in, I like to be the "new" right instead (and will try to forget that I ever thought a different way


I admire your determination to get results --- Keep Brewing!
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Re: Sparge time vs. Efficiency

Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:35 am

Thirsty Boy, have you completed any experiments yet, or still have some in progress? I haven't started yet, though I plan to on my next batch. The question keeps coming up again and again, and I am growing tired of basing my argument on nothing but theory. Time to get me some real data.

Thanks again.
Dave

"This is grain, which any fool can eat, but for which the Lord intended a more divine means of consumption. Let us give praise to our Maker, and glory to His bounty, by learning about... BEER!" - Friar Tuck (Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves)
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dmtaylor
 
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Re: Sparge time vs. Efficiency

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:09 pm

Well, I have a related bit of anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately, my plan wasn't to do anything relating to this type of experiment so the original bunch of parameters didn't match but I think the result is, though not conclusive, interesting.

I did a partigyle stout/mild a little while back. First runnings plus most of a mash out into one kettle, the last bit of the mash out and all of the (batch) sparge into the second.

Hopped differently but both were really low IBU...25 and 14 IBU if I remember correctly.

Fermentation was supposed to be with different yeasts. 2L starter of Wyeast 1028 (most starter liquid decanted off) into one the stout, a smackpack of 1275 into the mild (such a low gravity beer, I figured, wouldn't require a starter). After a couple days I was getting a good deal of blow-off from the 1028 fermentation (that I was collecting in a sanitized container to use in my next brew) and no activity in the 1275 fermentation. I ended up just chucking the blowoff of one fermentation into the next and the second beer took a couple hours later. Moral of the story: potentially they've got the same yeast but I'm not sure if the 1275 didn't kick up and influence the flavor at some point.

The stout got four ounces of TCHO cocoa nibs from MoreBeer for two weeks, the mild didn't. To be 100% honest, no one noticed the cocoa nib flavor until I mentioned it so I'm not sure of the flavor impact but I wanted full disclosure.

Upon tasting: the stout had a very pleasing, though present roast/caramel character. The mild had a significant, semi-harsh roast character and almost no caramel flavor. I'd posit that the harsh roastiness was because of the low gravity/semi-high percentage of roast malt combination but I have no way to explain the caramel flavor difference other than there's a different extraction between first-runnings and sparge runnings.

Here's the grain bill. I didn't seem to note the final volumes in my documentation, though.

% LB OZ
84% 17 0 American Two-row Pale
5% 1 0 Briess Caramel 80L
5% 1 0 Briess Roasted Barley
2% 0 8 Briess Chocolate 350 L
2% 0 8 Briess Special Roast
1% 0 4 Briess Caramel 20L

In the end, maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle. Perhaps caramel malt contributions are extracted more quickly. Perhaps roast malt flavors are extracted more slowly (or could be extracted over a longer period of time). Or maybe, my brewing process is extremely questionable and everything I do is a fluke. Hell, sometimes I consider it a fluke if I even get to work on time...

Questions? Fire away! Observations or suggestions? Suck it! ,,,or don't and provide me your observations/suggestions.
Bottle: Lonely Beer Party Bitter, Mildly Amused, Saison Du Biz (two fermentors with slightly different ferm. temps), Noah's Parti Bitter

Fermentor: Noahs Parti Wine-o

Coming up:
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