I definitely agree with you in that I would give up brewing beer if the mash and sparge took me four hours. From start to cleanup only takes me 5 - 5.5 hours.

Damm, Bug, sounds like you spend about as much time as I do sparging them flies in my system Usually and customarily it's about 90-120 minutes for mashing (single infusion), then 90-120 minutes sparging, another 20-30 minutes to get 13.5 gallons to boil from 160'F, then finally another 90-120 minutes boiling and lest I fergit, 5-10 minutes chillin out to pitchin temp. Total time, including cleanup is around 6-7 hours, and that includes a couple of quick naps in between Guess you got a better system of process or procedures than I do! Ttyal, and ilbcnu!

Prost!

Michel

I won't speak for Bug but my system, similar to his AFAIK, is also 4.5-5.5 hours start to finish. You nearly spend that mashing and sparging.

30mins grinding grain
30mins getting water for mash up
60min mash
30min Sparge
90 mins to get to boil and boil
30min clean up
3 hours on the couch watching TV

7.5 hours, much shorter and I got to watch the NASCAR race. Why such a long mash Zymurgest?? 1.5 to 2 hour mash, everything I have read says that isn't neccessary? Can you explain?

I won't speak for Bug but my system, similar to his AFAIK, is also 4.5-5.5 hours start to finish. You nearly spend that mashing and sparging.

While I can, it varies as I said from 3 *to* 4 hours mashing and sparging.

30mins grinding grain already done at lhbs
30mins getting water for mash up Whoa, takes me like 15 mins or so...sounds like you need a bigger burner ;^)

60min mash I find a longer mash produces a more malty profile, and I *do* like malty flavors

30min Sparge George Fix tried to sell me on short sparges too, but I found that a slow(er) sparge made for cleaner and clearer worts with my system.

90 mins to get to boil and boil Boy, you *really* do need a bigger burner IMHO! Takes me ~20 minutes on average to get to boiling, and I usually boil longer than most do cuz I have more to boil and I get far better hop utilization (like 30-33%) this way.

30min clean up I usually clean up as I go, so the time is actually included in my brewing day.

3 hours on the couch watching TV Now yer talkin my language ;^)

7.5 hours, much shorter and I got to watch the NASCAR race. I still watch the races, and make my wort too -- guess that makes me a multitasker?

Why such a long mash Zymurgest?? Mostly for flavor and color development. Melanoidins wait for noone!

1.5 to 2 hour mash, everything I have read says that isn't neccessary? That's why I've become a contrarian brewer. Just because someone somewhere says you get conversion in 15-20 minutes doesn't necessarily mean that the mash is done with all the complex biochemical pathways available now does it?

Can you explain? Well, I hope that I have, but just in case I haven't, after 35 years brewing homebrew, and 25 of those years doing all grain, I've come to some unusal conclusions.
1.) Most info in the homebrewing literature is apocryphal at best and disinformative at worst.
2.) What works for one brewer at his/her brewery may or may not work for someone else in another locale, and most likely won't.
3.) While generic information may be profitable in terms of general interest, and will produce reproducible results, this is not always the case. I'd like to think that I'm a pragmatist when it comes to brewing homebrew, and I've found a lot of things that have been suggested in the past may or may not work as advertised. After running numerous experiments, I've come to the conclusion that if you are brewing good beer then you are doing something right. If you are brewing GREAT beer then you are doing something well indeed, and your processes and procedures may not reflect similar results outside of that context. I brew and continue to brew what my fellows in the Oregon Brew Crew would call great beer. I enjoy making it, drinking it, and sharing it. What it all comes down to IMHO is this: what is it that works for you that produces the desired outcome that you seek? Answer that question and you are well on your way to producing great beers IMHO. And, as always, YMMV Ttyal, and ilbcnu!

Prost!

Michel

I will address a couple things first.

I errored on the high side for the mash water to temp, you are right, probably closer to 15 mins, never timed it. The boil for the wort takes 15 min to get to boil and then a 75 min boil. I don't think that is bad for my burner so I am good with it.

My whole point was that you spent, what many would consider, a large amount of time Mashing and Sparging. I just wanted to know the benefit? Not a bash.

One thing threw me though. You said you sparge longer to get clearer and cleaner worts. I still get clear worts and beers with batch sparging and many others do to. The last beer I did I can read the newspaper through and not struggle.

What it all comes down to goes to what you said. Systems work differently for different people. I wasn't bashing, just trying to understand. I also re-read one of your earlier posts and I believe I mis-interpretted it and it's tone. Sorry for that. We probably wouldn't be where we are at now if I didn't do that. Although it did lead me to understand a different process.

Nate

I errored on the high side for the mash water to temp, you are right, probably closer to 15 mins, never timed it. The boil for the wort takes 15 min to get to boil and then a 75 min boil. I don't think that is bad for my burner so I am good with it.

Oh, ok, np, just curious, wasn't meaning to sound critical, thats why the smilies

My whole point was that you spent, what many would consider, a large amount of time Mashing and Sparging. I just wanted to know the benefit? Not a bash.

No bash inferred or implied, IMHO Many benefits come from a long mash and sparge, chief among them are full development of flavor, color, and extract. I've tried many combinations of mash and sparge times, and found this combination works best for me with my system.

One thing threw me though. You said you sparge longer to get clearer and cleaner worts. I still get clear worts and beers with batch sparging and many others do to. The last beer I did I can read the newspaper through and not struggle.

Well, that's more of a side benefit, but I really do get cleaner tasting worts, as well as clearer looking worts (I also am including the vorlauf time in the sparge time, as they are essentially post mash operations). I've tried batch sparging, and it takes over twice as long to collect all the sweet wort to go to the kettle, while with fly sparging (fruit, or house, I dunno), I can begin the boil as soon as the kettle starts to fill, and have a full boil going in under 10 minutes. By the time sparging is done, the boil is ready for the first charge of boiling hops.

What it all comes down to goes to what you said. Systems work differently for different people. I wasn't bashing, just trying to understand.

Same here, hope I wasn't being unclear of my intentions, just trying to point out that it can take longer to batch than fly sparge, due to the added time to vorlauf a second time or more.

I also re-read one of your earlier posts and I believe I mis-interpretted it and it's tone. Sorry for that. We probably wouldn't be where we are at now if I didn't do that. Although it did lead me to understand a different process.

No problemo, Nate, it's all good. I'm just glad we were able to sort it all out like we did. Sounds like you've found, like me, a method which works best for your brewery and have procedures in place which allow you to do so consistently, and conveniently. Understanding is the first step towards being a master at any craft, and we all need to periodically review our standard operational procedures to make sure we're not stuck in a rut
Ttyal, and ilbcnu!

Prost!

Michel

I know this is slightly off subject, but I have a question about efficiency. I have been doing extract brewing for 14 years now and am getting ready to make the jump to all-grain. I keep hearing about the use of mash efficiency, how do I figure this out for future referrence? I know that during the first batch it won't make a difference, but I might need it for poss problem solving later. I think I'm going to do a 30 min mash batch sparge just to keep it simple. If you need more info to figure this out just ask( as far as my equipment that I'll be using and such.).

Bear,
This is from Plamer's How To Brew book that is available online for free at http://www.howtobrew.com. It's not the gospel but it has a lot of REALLY useful info:

First, take the EXPECTED gravity (BEFORE the boil is best) for your recipe, for instance 1.048 and drop the "1.0" part. You get 48 "points". This is NOT the O.G. stated in the recipe. This is what you expect to get from your recipe before you boil. You can figure this out by using tables in Plamer's book and finding the potential of the malts in your recipe.

Now, brew your beer and measure your S.G. of the wort BEFORE the boil. You get 1.040 in my example ( I am sure you are a FINE brewer, but it's just an example). Again, drop the "1.0" and you have 40 points. Divide the points you got by the potential points, 40/48=0.833333, or 83%.

Note that the O.G. the recipe states is ALREADY adjusted for a given efficiency. For instance, the book "Beer Captured" has recipes based on an efficiency of 70%. If you wanted to you could take the list of grains and their potential points per pound, per gallon (pppg) and then do the above.

An alternative to ALL of this is to use Promash, Beersmith, or another brewing program or calculator. You will just record your results and after the brew day it will tell you the efficiency you got. It's nice to know how to do the math and to know what the software is doing, but it's easier to use the software.

Good Luck!

Rob