Yeast Rinsing issue

Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:35 pm

Okay, I've done the sterilized water method of yeast rinsing, not washing because I don't have an autoclave. I had a great fermentation of my SafAle S05 and decided to keep it for my next batches. Long story short, after rinsing I ended up with 7 8oz jars, each with about 2oz of very creamy looking yeast. Unlike the WLP tubes I've used before, this yeast doesn't seem to thicken into a paste like consistency, instead it is very fluid.

My question is simple, is this normal or did I do something wrong? If it is normal, when I go to pitch this yeast, how much should I be using?

FWIW, I was an extract/partial mash brewer until this batch (my first all grain, a Hoppy Pale Ale) and the dry yeast just performed perfectly, so that is why I wanted to try to keep this yeast going.
MouseInCA
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:31 pm

Re: Yeast Rinsing

Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:20 am

First off I'll point out that an autoclave has nothing to do with rinsing or washing. Sure you could get that extra level of sterilization for your rinse water, but the boil/cool method works fine for typical homebrewing application.

Secondly, have you read the yeast rinsing thread in the Fermentation sub-forum? That may help you a little bit. It's tough to judge what exactly is going on without pictures & a better description of your harvesting & rinsing processes, including whatever measurements you took along the way. It could be any number of things, but since you said it looks creamy & didn't use the words dusty, cloudy, dark or anything that refers to taste/smell, I would guess you're fine but that's just a stab in the dark without more info. I'd also put one sample through an appropriate starter & take notes/measurements.
Lee

"Show me on this doll where the internet hurt you."

"Every zoo is a petting zoo if you man the fuck up."

:bnarmy: BN Army // 13th Mountain Division :bnarmy:
User avatar
Ozwald
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Gallatin Gateway, Montana

Re: Yeast Rinsing

Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:24 am

Ozwald wrote:Secondly, have you read the yeast rinsing thread in the Fermentation sub-forum? That may help you...


Going for 2013's Dedication to Personal Success, Ozwald? Linky-thing
Spiderwrangler
PFC, Arachnid Deployment Division

In the cellar:
In the fermentor: Belgian Cider
In the works: Wooden Cider
User avatar
spiderwrangler
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 4663
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:09 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: Yeast Rinsing

Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:09 pm

My mistake, I thought that I had posted this in Fermentation. If a moderator would kindly move this, I would appreciate it.

I followed your directions and added a secondary rinse of the yeast to ensure that I got all of the best of the yeast. When I say that it is fluid, I imagine the best way to look at it is heavy oil in water. If I tip the jar the yeast slides easily and will slosh against the side of the jar, is easily mixed into the water on top of it, but nothing packs together. I will just make a starter, decant the water and see how it does.

I appreciate the thoughts Ozwald!

Mouse
MouseInCA
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:31 pm

Re: Yeast Rinsing issue

Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:03 pm

Mouse -

Probably normal. Some yeasts pack down really tightly and others are a little looser. Your description sounds like it's good yeast. The longer it settles after rinsing, it will start to pack down a little tighter but not dramatically so.

Best way to determine how much yeast to pitch is to do a cell count with a microscope and hemacytometer so you know how dense your slurry is. You're not going to get the density of a White Labs tube -- that is very densely cultured and I suspect packed with some sort of centrifuge process to maximize yeast and minimize liquid.

Then there is the question as to "why" ...... if the US05 worked well, why wouldn't you expect the next pack you get to work well? When you are using dry yeast the economics don't make sense to make starters or save/culture/repitch etc. I don't just mean price, but your time and the risk of introducing contamination with each transfer, pitch, and ferment.

If the answer is "because I want to do it" ....... great! have fun! Been there done that myself, but because I am too busy to brew much lately it's more practical for me to pick up a new tube and make a starter before I brew. If I were using dry -- well, I've got 10 sachets of yeast in my fridge for when I finally get around to making that mead I've always been wanting to try ..........
-- Scott

On Tap - Janet's Brown, Easy-Jack/SNPA mash-up
Primary - BCS Saison with rye
Secondary - Cabernet Sauvingon
animaldoc
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 5:59 pm

Re: Yeast Rinsing

Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:47 pm

Thanks for the clarification.

MouseInCA wrote:added a secondary rinse of the yeast to ensure that I got all of the best of the yeast.


Without a good amount of experience or a methylene stain, it's rather difficult to know if you actually did leave behind the 'best' yeast in your sample. It's something I've learned to eyeball, but it's still not easy. I tend to over rinse & build back up with starters, but even then it's easy to miss that right 'cut'. Not saying you did or didn't, but don't make the assumption.

animaldoc wrote:You're not going to get the density of a White Labs tube -- that is very densely cultured and I suspect packed with some sort of centrifuge process to maximize yeast and minimize liquid.


Absolutely. They do in fact use a centrifuge. If you want to see the difference between a regular floc & how far they compress theirs, shake up a tube & pitch it into a few hundred mL of rinse water. Swirl it up & let it floc out. There's a lot more in that tube than you'd expect. I read the original post as 'this yeast didn't settle out after rinsing like a WLP yeast floc'd after rinsing'. If it indeed was comparing to a rinsed sample having the same density as a fresh tube, you'll never get there.

animaldoc wrote: Then there is the question as to "why" ...... if the US05 worked well, why wouldn't you expect the next pack you get to work well? When you are using dry yeast the economics don't make sense to make starters or save/culture/repitch etc. I don't just mean price, but your time and the risk of introducing contamination with each transfer, pitch, and ferment.

If the answer is "because I want to do it" ....... great! have fun!


This was my assumption. It's not a good idea if your goal is to save money. If that first pitch worked so much better than every other pitch of US-05, my first guess wouldn't be the yeast. The dry strains are pretty consistent. I would look more at what kind of nutrients, grain bill, O2 concentration and pitch rate.

MouseInCA wrote:When I say that it is fluid, I imagine the best way to look at it is heavy oil in water. If I tip the jar the yeast slides easily and will slos0h against the side of the jar, is easily mixed into the water on top of it, but nothing packs together. I will just make a starter, decant the water and see how it does.


It really depends on how long it's been settled as well. If you were checking it out immediately after it stratified, it's going to be less dense & more easily disturbed than after 36 hours. 24-36 hours seems to be when the strains that I've worked with seem to become a bit more stable although it will continue to compact slightly over the course of the next several days.

Not all strains behave the same way either. A good example, I've got extensive experience with a handful of strains, but I recently played with WLP028 Edinburgh for the first time. It's pretty similar to the English & not too far from the American strains I have experience with, but it was like getting a stray dog from the pound - I could work with it, but certainly couldn't control it as I'm used to & it just wouldn't behave like the other 'strays' I've picked up in the past.

When you say heavy oil in water, I'm imagining one of those science toys that you can tip back & forth to make waves which seems rather loose. If you're referring more towards a not-quite-runny gravy or wallpaper paste type consistency, you're in the right ballpark. I'd agree the best thing you can do at this point is put it in a starter, observe & take notes. I'd be sure to get really close to a 1.040 starter wort & not pitch it into too large of a volume - maybe about 10x, 50mL slurry to 500mL wort, 100 to 1000, etc. That might even be a touch on the heavy side.

If you do decide to push this further, let us know how it goes.

:jnj

spiderwrangler wrote:Going for 2013's Dedication to Personal Success, Ozwald? Linky-thing


Wanna buy an Ozwald's Brewing Co. shirt or pint glass? :D
Lee

"Show me on this doll where the internet hurt you."

"Every zoo is a petting zoo if you man the fuck up."

:bnarmy: BN Army // 13th Mountain Division :bnarmy:
User avatar
Ozwald
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Gallatin Gateway, Montana

Re: Yeast Rinsing issue

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:21 pm

I appreciate all the sage advice.

@Ozwald... Yes, like thick gravy in water. I did the same with a cake of WLP090 San Diego Supper Yeast and it settled to a very thick paste close to what was in the tube. I made a starter and pitched one of my jars (minus the liquid) tonight and we'll see how it does. I think you had asked about smell earlier. It had a very light beer smell, almost like a Corona that is too cold.

@animaldoc... I'm planning on making the same brew again and want to see if I was able to rinse this correctly. I tend to have 3 beers going at all times, so if I can save $4 to $7 every week on the yeast, that pays for the 4th brew. And if I can get 5 or 6 re-pitches and develop my own house strain, all the better.
MouseInCA
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:31 pm

Re: Yeast Rinsing issue

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:43 am

MouseInCA wrote:I appreciate all the sage advice.

@Ozwald... Yes, like thick gravy in water. I did the same with a cake of WLP090 San Diego Supper Yeast and it settled to a very thick paste close to what was in the tube. I made a starter and pitched one of my jars (minus the liquid) tonight and we'll see how it does. I think you had asked about smell earlier. It had a very light beer smell, almost like a Corona that is too cold.

@animaldoc... I'm planning on making the same brew again and want to see if I was able to rinse this correctly. I tend to have 3 beers going at all times, so if I can save $4 to $7 every week on the yeast, that pays for the 4th brew. And if I can get 5 or 6 re-pitches and develop my own house strain, all the better.


That sounds pretty normal. The 090 is a heavy flocculator, but most strains will settle to a firm cake - some just require more time. If you were to test it in a hemocytometer there would still be a huge difference in cell density. Just for clarification. If it doesn't smell funky or sour, you're likely pretty good to go.

As for saving money, I'm having a hard time following your math. I'm assuming you're brewing somewhere in the 5-15 gallon range. That would come out to $0.50-$1.50 per pitch. At 5 gallons, 1 brew a week to keep 3 carboys going that's $26 per year for a fresh pitch every batch (which would also put you over the legal limit, but that's neither here nor there). Just to keep 1 strain going is going to cost you that much every month in DME - or a few months if you're doing all grain starters. Add in the electric/gas for the stove & hot water heater, the cleaning & sanitizing chemicals, extra vessels for the starters... at the very best & giving you the benefit of the doubt, you'll be spending about 15x as much to keep that yeast going vs a fresh pitch every time over the course of a year.

Edit: I just looked up US-05 & the price is significantly higher than what I remember but I'm still calculating out less than $2.00 per pitch. Less of a difference, but still way cheaper to pitch fresh every time.
Lee

"Show me on this doll where the internet hurt you."

"Every zoo is a petting zoo if you man the fuck up."

:bnarmy: BN Army // 13th Mountain Division :bnarmy:
User avatar
Ozwald
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Gallatin Gateway, Montana

Next

Return to Fermentation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

A BIT ABOUT US

The Brewing Network is a multimedia resource for brewers and beer lovers. Since 2005, we have been the leader in craft beer entertainment and information with live beer radio, podcasts, video, events and more.