Beer Forum

I am getting a slight solventy/acidic flavor in my last two batches. I brewed a dry stout and a robust porter all grain. My water is really hard, with lots of chloramine. I run it through a carbon filter and sparge with RO water (don't remember where I heard to do this, but starting to question it's validity) I have a Therminator plate chiller which I clean with hot PBW and water pressure right after I chill, the following day bake it at 350 for an hour and clean it again before I brew. I run Star San (used with distilled water to maintain its effectiveness) thru the whole system for 30 minutes and have my carboy filled all day long. The reason I give my process is I don't know where I could be getting a lacto infection (which is what I think it is) any ideas ?

Before we get into the lacto, I'd suggest your water is consistent - I treat my HLT so I sparge with the same water that I use to mash. That isn't going to improve your lacto situation, but you won't be wrestling with astringency issues due to incorrect pH, etc.

Otherwise, it doesn't sound like your chiller is at fault. You need to check your transfer hoses, and any other plastic/rubber the beer touches coming out of the kettle, in and out of the fermenter, to the bottling bucket (if you use one) and into the keg/bottles, as well as ensuring your sanitizing solution is at the right concentration, pH, etc. and that all your vessels are cleaned well before they are sanitized. Take apart and clean and sanitize anything that can be disconnected. Ensure when you bottle/keg, the area is clean, dust and draft free, and there is no way for microbes to blow onto your cleaned and sanitized equipment. If you have any old plastic or rubber, just toss it and get new replacements. Nothing worse than infected beer.

HTH-

Ohh man I know there's nothing worse! Yea it may be my tubing, everything else in my process is pretty much solid, I sometimes think I take it to far haha. I have Saran Wrap soaking in Starsan to cover things and always soak for at least ten minutes. The only thing I could think of is maybe my ball valve on the kettle isn't getting hot enough to sanatize it, do you think flaming it with isopropyl would be okay? I do keg and have new Star San ran thru my whole set up for 30 minutes. I'm just now getting into water I've taken some people's advice on getting down fermentation and understanding recipes before worrying about water. I thought it may be water but didn't think I could have to much of an off PH with high carbonate water but maybe my next batch ill build my own water from RO; are there any helpful threads on building water profiles?

if you are boiling in your kettle for 75 mins (60 min boil + time to hit hot break), the ball valve should get hot enough. Even then, though, you should run some water through it before filling it just to ensure there are no spiders or dust or anything else hiding in there.

Go to the grocery store and buy an empty spray bottle (like windex might com in) and fill it with star-san. Then you have an easy way to sanitize stuff quickly and easily when you need it without having to soak stuff.

HTH-

Totes.McGoats wrote:I am getting a slight solventy/acidic flavor in my last two batches. I brewed a dry stout and a robust porter all grain. My water is really hard, with lots of chloramine. I run it through a carbon filter and sparge with RO water (don't remember where I heard to do this, but starting to question it's validity) I have a Therminator plate chiller which I clean with hot PBW and water pressure right after I chill, the following day bake it at 350 for an hour and clean it again before I brew. I run Star San (used with distilled water to maintain its effectiveness) thru the whole system for 30 minutes and have my carboy filled all day long. The reason I give my process is I don't know where I could be getting a lacto infection (which is what I think it is) any ideas ?

Let's not jump so quickly to a Lacto infection because that will likely lead to a tunnel-vision approach to the problem which will mask things for future batches. It certainly could be lacto, but don't rule out other parts of your process. Here are somethings I would ask myself if I were in this situation. Hope some of this can help.

1. What were your pH readings during the mash, into the kettle, into the fermentation and post fermentation? Did your RO water lack the proper buffering minerals/capability to keep the darker pH-lowering malts from lowering your pH too far?

2. How long did you mash for and at what temp?

3. Describe your fermentation. What yeast strain were you using, what generation of the yeast strain was it? Is this a new vial/smack pack or has this been rinsed from previous batches? What was your fermentation temp, aeration, pitching rate and pressure/headspace in the fermentation?

4. Pour yourself a sample your beers and smell them next to a commercial Stout or Porter example at room temp to give you a better idea of off flavors and aromas. Now plug your nose and taste your beers. Are your taste buds telling you it's acidic and potentially fusel-like or is your nose the primary indicator of the solvent character?

5. Before focusing on a lactobacillus infection, ask yourself what is a lactobacillus infection, where does it potentially come from and what are indicators of it? Just because there is acidity doesn't necessarily mean there is a bacteria creating that acidity. If you're unable to answer these questions then you may potentially just be guessing at the problem. Focus on what you know to be obviously wrong with the beer and work backwards in your brewing process. Chances are most problems occur prior to, during or after fermentation.

6. Are there potentially fusel alcohols present from fermentation?

7. Is there a large presence of esters in the beer? Ethyl Acetate is a common ester that has a fruity solvent like character.

8. Are you soaking your chiller in PBW for an extended amount of time, multiple times or are you rinsing it with hot PBW once or twice?

9. Bottle 2 or 3 of the beers and let them sit at room temp for a few weeks. If upon opening the beers you seen an increased amount of Diacetyl, CO2/Beer Gushing, Haze, pH Decrease, Lactic Acid, Acetic Acid, Ethanol or other inappropriate off character there's a chance some sort of an infection is at work. If this is the case, toss your hoses and "soft parts" used around the time of fermenting.

10. Have you filtered the beer with gelatin or any other fining agents yet? If so, is/was the flavor there before, after or both?

11. When's the last time you replaced your "soft parts"?

12. What's your method of cleaning your fermentation vessel?

Thanks you guys I've got a lot of good information here and I will work backwards. I never do anything for PH, I guess I always figured I needed to perfect everything before jumping into water. I have poured the beers and tasted at cold/room temps. The aroma is good it's just the taste. I don't detect any other off flavors, but I haven't had very much experience with contaminated beers.

Don't mention it, happy to have hopefully helped.

With pH you don't necessarily need to jump full on into Water Chemistry yet if you're still focusing on other brewing topics. I guess the point being that the majority of beers if brewed correctly will experience a drop in pH during mashing, during the boil and during fermentation. Making sure you achieve the correct pH range at each stage and especially in fermentation ensures protection against most but not all common microbiological bacteria. If your post fermentation pH is deviating too far below or above that general final pH range of most beers then there is a chance something stopped fermentation short and/or a bacteria of some sort is feeding off the remaining sugars, nitrogen, nutrients and elements that originally belonged to the yeast or the final beer.

I also saw in another post you were having issues of Chloramines in your water? Try some KMS/Campden Tablets/Potassium Metabisulfite or SMS/Sodium Metabisulfite in your brewing water. Real cheap, real easy.

I do have Camden tablets, I use a 10" carbon filter I got from Morebeer that will strip it right? Or should I do both? I'm buying a PH meter and replacing all my tubing and brewing a batch next weekend to see if that helps. Thanks again I appreciate all the help! The more I learn about brewing I realize I haven't scratched the surface haha it's all trial and error and I love it!!!!!